Non toxic out and out varmint rounds. What's out there?

[Hairysausagefingers]

Time will tell I guess but I'm not one to bury my head in sand.
I'll carry on shooting lead as long as I can, but I'd like to work up some lead-free loads for my rifles in advance. Call it insurance if you like.
If they don't work out I might get variations and go for something bigger… who knows. Three or four boxes of lead free bullets and a bit of load develpment isn't exactly tightening the noose.
I take it you can't recommend anything non-lead at this stage?

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

I have only shot one fox with a 6mm varmint grenade but it died instantly, only had an entrance wound and sloshed a lot when I moved it !!

Thank you

 

[Rake Aboot]

Lead ammo will be available longer than we are alive that’s for sure.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Up there with leaded petrol, split shot, lead water pipes, lead solder in water systems, lead based paint and those 3" BB goose loads on my side of the border no doubt.

What makes you think lead ammo is going to get away unscathed when all our sporting organizations signed up for a voluntary phase out on our behalf?
I hope you are right, but I think change is coming and as I've said before… what possible grounds could I have against shooting lead free ammo as long as it's accurate and fragments in the way I'm looking for?

 

[TURNBOLT]

Lead ammo will be available longer than we are alive that’s for sure.

In the uk ? Legally .How can you be so sure ?

 

[old 30-06]

Please, please. Its not toxic, its just lead.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Okay… .well, there's a break from conventional wisdom.
Would you rate it 100% safe to handle and ingest then, or would you call it harmful, dangerous, hazardous, poisionious or something like that?
Happy drinking from a lead tankard for the next year, or would you like a glass instead?
Not lead crystal of course

 

[Bowland blades]

I do a tiny bit of stalking, but I shoot a lot of foxes and a fair few rabbits.
I've shot copper through my .243 and know you pin a deer through both shoulders at 200yds and still have joints worth eating.
There is a world of difference between what a barnes TTSS does to fox out of my rifle compared to what a V-Max or Varmageddon does.
What I need help with please is finding a non toxic V-Max equivalent that isn't really a deer bullet pretending to be something else.
I have shot 35gr Hornady NTX (non toxic expanding) with my hornet and they are great. They blow up and act just like V-Max, but that's as heavy as they get. This is the best non toxic bullet I have found for my purposes so far.
Is there anything that works the same as V-Max, Blitzking, Varmageddon in say 50ish grains for my .223 or 70ish grains for my .243?
There must be a demand for V-Max style bullets in the weight ranges I'm talking about because literally millions have been sold.
It just seems really odd to me that the advice coming down the line for varmints is to use what are effectively deer bullets and concenteate on immaculate shot placement at the risk of otherwise drilling our soft skinned friend Mr Fox.
In crude terms I want very big holes in him and I don't want him to run. That seems more humane to me.
What is available please?
1:10 in the .243 and 1:8 in the .223.
Or, do I have to wait until the lead ban arrives and we only rethink varmint bullets when it happens?

Thus far i have only shot with Barnes TTSX 100 grain 6.5 mm on Fox ( speaking in none toxic ) They are very , very dead and not something the taxidermist would wish to work on from the 260rem at 3300 fps
I have been shooting Hornady eCX 50 grain from my 1-12 twist .223 at similar velocity , its fine as regards twist rate ( though i am planning on a re-barrel to 1-8 for longer / heavy for calibre bullets say up to 70 grain ) Though that might change when i have a good few Roe , CWD, Muntjac done with the 50s.
I really like shooting copper to be fair , indeed the only thing that bothers me is it really does need a measure of extra caution regards ricochet - Forget the fact you dont hear the zing as that is only audible when the bullet is slowed to subsonic velocities ( about a quarter of its launch speed )

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Thanks, something that had completely passed me by was the fact that the ricochets aren't apparent until the bullet slows down. Good info. In fact, the craziest ricochet I ever had was after drilling one quarter to quarter with an 80gr TTSX. Scared the crap out of me as it went whistling off. I feel a bit better knowing it was subsonic at that stage. I never recovered the animal either and decided to reserve those loads for deer only from that point on.
I looks like the extra half mil diameter, extra 20 grains weight and extra 100fps mv makes a lot of difference compared to my .243 loads.
I might try some CX in the .223 and see how they go. I know you rate them highly.

 

[Triggermortis]

I’m of the mind that your looking for an answer to a problem that don’t exist, once you get above say 1000 ft lbs of muzzle energy that’s more than enough to kill any fox, and with a “normal” load any .243 bullet on the market (factory or homeloads)will exceed that by a long chalk.
A .22 hornet at circa 700 ft lbs will kill at 200yds with ease so anything you can safely shoot through your .243 is going to perform regardless of bullet type or construction.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

The energy levels are there for sure, but yet I've found I've drilled lightweight animals with non-lead out of my Hornet and my .243.
The example above was a clear hit with a good blood trail and the bullet just pencilled through without the expansion I'd get from a frangible bullet.
It wouldn't have lasted long I'm sure, but I do like to kill them quickly and recover them too.
How much of that 1,000 ft lbs gets lost in the ground following a clean pass through I wonder? In my mind that's not a clean transfer of energy, whereas a frangible bullet that doesn't exit has actually dropped the full 1,000 ft lbs of enerergy into the animal.
That's why I like "varmint" style bullets and why I'm after reliable non-lead versions.
Military fmj ammunition has a heap of energy behind it but I'm confident frangible bullets would result in more deaths at the expense of woundings. I wouldn't want to get hit by either, but given the option I'd chose something that wasn't going to expand much.

 

[ChesterP]

As others have suggested, why not just carry on using Vmax or similar? They just work.

 

[User00040]

Up there with leaded petrol, split shot, lead water pipes, lead solder in water systems, lead based paint and those 3" BB goose loads on my side of the border no doubt.

Those are awesome, not just for goose.

Don't mention 'Metri's'

What makes you think lead ammo is going to get away unscathed when all our sporting organizations signed up for a voluntary phase out on our behalf?
I hope you are right, but I think change is coming and as I've said before… what possible grounds could I have against shooting lead free ammo as long as it's accurate and fragments in the way I'm looking for?

Hope you have lead free primers ready.

There is lead in the soil in which wheat is grown, which makes it way into bread and other products.

If you are one of the 'gluent free mob', then you are also in the 'church of lead free' (which coincides with my ignore list).

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Right… .Chester P.
I love V-Max and have no intention of stopping using them whilst I still can, but I want to prepare for the worst case scenario and have a non lead loads in case one day I'm not allowed to. It's just what I want to do.

Caberslash… .3inch BB's… I totally agree. Love them and they were great on geese and did a better job than steel ever will.

No I'm not "gluten free mob" but a lot of folk are, through no fault of their own and have to follow a certain diet or get ill. I can handle that choice and I don't judge them. Guess what… I even know some vegetarians!
Just because I've made some enquiries about lead-free frangible bullets it doesn't make me a tree-hugger, a vegan or anything else. I have no issue with the lead in primers and I don't have an issue with lead bullets either. I have a shelf rammed with them here!
Is anyone who shoots deer with copper also on your "ignore list" and a paid-up member of the "Church of the Lead Free"?

I'm sensing a real sense of denial in some of the responses here and a bit of animosity that I'm even considering lead free.
Fact… people (not me) are trying to stop us shooting lead ammunition.
Fact… they (not me) have been partly sucessful (wildfowling law and a broad switch to copper for deer, especially anything going through game dealers and anything Forestry Commission)
Fact… all our sporting bodies (I trust you belong to one and haven't resigned over it) support a move to lead free ammunition.
Fact… .the pressures are not going to get any less and guess what… IT ISN'T GOING TO GO AWAY.
You can jump and down all you want and brand me with whatever label you want, but IT STILL ISN'T GOING TO GO AWAY.

All I want is a non lead bullet or two that violently fragment on foxes when shot through my rifles. I really can't see an issue with that.
Thanks to the sensible replies I have had, I've got the 58gr Barnes Varmint Grenades on my short list for the .243, the 50gr CX's for the .223 and perhaps some of the lead free Noslers if I can track them down.

 

[Home Loader]

I use 62gr Barnes varmint grenades in my 243 they are very effective but not a direct replacement for a V-max style bullet, I am not running them flat out but be aware while they work well, reactions are not always consistent the results are dead animal, but some much more explosive than others.
I am going to try some 70gr virtus bullets they do a couple of styles one supposed to be quite expansive.

 

[Oh6]

All I want is a non lead bullet or two that violently fragment on foxes when shot through my rifles. I really can't see an issue with that.
Thanks to the sensible replies I have had, I've got the 58gr Barnes Varmint Grenades on my short list for the .243, the 50gr CX's for the .223 and perhaps some of the lead free Noslers if I can track them down.

No obvious comment on this thread from any of the makers or sellers of non-lead bullets, extolling the virtues of their VMax alternatives...

Which may well tell you all that you didn't want to discover about the number of non-lead varmint bullets that there are on offer to try.

If you think 6mm options are limited, try researching .257 non-lead varmint bullets.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

I use 62gr Barnes varmint grenades in my 243 they are very effective but not a direct replacement for a V-max style bullet, I am not running them flat out but be aware while they work well, reactions are not always consistent the results are dead animal, but some much more explosive than others.
I am going to try some 70gr virtus bullets they do a couple of styles one supposed to be quite expansive.

Cheers, let me know how you get on please. Pm me in due course once you've tried them please.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

No obvious comment on this thread from any of the makers or sellers of non-lead bullets, extolling the virtues of their VMax alternatives...

Which may well tell you all that you didn't want to discover about the number of non-lead varmint bullets that there are on offer to try.

If you think 6mm options are limited, try researching .257 non-lead varmint bullets.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

 

[Lancaster]

No obvious comment on this thread from any of the makers or sellers of non-lead bullets, extolling the virtues of their VMax alternatives...

Which may well tell you all that you didn't want to discover about the number of non-lead varmint bullets that there are on offer to try.

If you think 6mm options are limited, try researching .257 non-lead varmint bullets.

In the UK a large part of the market, namely Game dealers, won't accept Venison shot with Lead, so the innovators have put their money where their mouth is and come up with a number of Lead Free alternatives that knock down Deer with a degree of authority and certainty that it will expire quickly with an acceptable amount of meat damage.

We have come an awful long way from the Barnes X of years ago.

The possible ban on non Lead projectiles for all rifle shooting has yet to be discussed following consultation, never mind being debated through Parliament, and a date hasn't been announced, no timescales, no parameters regarding calibres that will be effected etc.

Given how quickly the manufacturers have reacted to changes in legislation, not market forces, in the rest of the World, and the speed that UK based company's have brought new products to market, I have a high degree of confidence that if/when a Lead ban is introduced for rifle projectiles, those entities are already investing time, effort and money into having products that can be brought forward when needed.

As I have posted previously, I now use Non Lead exclusively for Deer, they do the job, period, but I'm not swapping to Non Lead for my vermin/fox rifles until I have to, simply because the bullets I currently use do the job very effectively, and cheaper than the Copper based alternatives.

 

[jthyttin]

perhaps some of the lead free Noslers if I can track them down

I'd just put an (back)order at Brownells if you cannot find them in stock. £60 per hundred yes it's dear, but you get £10 off by ordering newsletter. And free postage if you happen to find something else to get over £100 total.