Voluntary Annual Assessment - Poll

[finnbear270]

I totally get your not proposing this becomes legislation or part of licensing so all good there and yes each individual needs to keep ontop of their own competency.

As you correctly state the addition of hoops to jump through that is not legislative needs to be challenged...but to what level? The individual can challenge the licensing dept directly, then if no joy have a main body like BASC challenge on their behalf. I suspect...in fact I know both of these are futile and until a piece of paper says the licence holder has obtained DSC1 then licensing aren't going to budge!

Yes there's the saftey side of things for new applicants but what about experienced CF licences holders? At that point it comes down to knowledge of deer, ballistic legal requirements etc etc which is good to obtain but not compulsory so why are 99% of licensing debts demanding it!? Why hasn't BASC, SGA etc challenged and quashed this unlegislated demand??

My point is that if licensing depts can make this demand with regard to DSC1 then what is to stop them making the demand with this competency?

Logistically is would be a nightmare BUT yes if an individual wishes to have some form of unofficial qualification to show prospective landowners then let them do so off their own back.

Then comes the American mentality of everyone suing everyone...a person completes the competency assessment and has the misfortune to have an accident the landowner could then desire financial settlement in court from the range/establishment that passed the individual. After all as a business the range/establishment is likely to have more money than the individual.

As much as its a nice idea I believe its a quagmire for abuse from licensing and other areas to restrict our sport which is under more scrutiny now than ever before.

Good debate material though!!

Your own insurance will take precedence.

 

[finnbear270]

I am in the “no” camp as well.
DSC2 is quoted as, not many do it after DSC1. well, why should you? DSC2 (which i am not against) shows someone else that you are able to stalk and gralloch a deer. I know how to do both. (I’m sure I could do it better though, but I won’t get the from DSC2). I stalk private ground and nobody has ever asked or needed it. At some point I will do it, when time allows, but, not for CPD. Hence why I am one of the stats who hasn’t gone and done it.

Target shooting. Boring as hell, and where is the range I can practice on? I can just manage 15/20 meters into the wood shed with my air rifle. So if I want to practice, then it would have to be Bisley. I have neither the time nor the money for that. Funny enough, I was out yesterday and checking zero on my rifles, (2 bullets, each caliber allowed, but if I spent an hour the farmer would be complaining.) so lose the village green and put a range on there and, yeah, I would be happy to practice.

Your target idea is flawed. I have never been under pressure to shoot a deer. If I am comfortable with the shot, I take it. I have often stood and watched a deer for half an hour, before it moves into a position that I can it. I am not sat there tense waiting to squeeze the trigger, I am sitting comfortably watching through binos.

I would see it as likely the police would take it as 'necessary', and we know how effective our organisations are at fighting. Or should that be, we know how much the government doesn’t listen to advise from the community.

I agree with many of the valid sentiments from other people here And I am not against CPD. However I think your idea is flawed and would not prove anything.
Now, if someone was to start that petition to change the cricket club into a target range…….. I’m in.

One very large flaw, as large as an Elephant in the forum, Is the FLD's using their weight to invent and apply stuff that is outwith "Firearms Law", If a voluntary scheme is picked up on by the FLD's It should be kicked out of their remit.

 

[finnbear270]

One item I would remove from any such voluntary system is the grading, you either make the grade judged to be sufficient / proficient, or you don't ..... Any shooting of live quarry cannot rely on a grade .... either you make the parameter or fail & consider going back into training.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Isn’t failing to maintain adequate standards of marksmanship during deer management not the “dirty linen “ rather than suggesting a means to show that stalkers skills are up to scratch…. or am I missing something?

Agreed. Not the best description of how I see these calls for further and no doubt soon to follow mandatory testing, but rather a mark of my frustration with our ability - as I see it - to score multiple home goals.

I’m just not happy to promote or see suggested in print, proposals that risk further limiting the opportunity for keen riflemen hunters to shoot deer, as the grant of a suitably ‘conditioned’ FAC is no longer seen as sufficient, and all because someone on The Stalking Directory wishes to subject us all to mandatory Deer Management CPD and marksmanship testing.

K

 

[finnbear270]

Agreed. Not the best description of how I see these calls for further and no doubt soon to follow mandatory testing, but rather a mark of my frustration with our ability - as I see it - to score multiple home goals.

I’m just not happy to promote or see suggested in print, proposals that risk further limiting the opportunity for keen riflemen hunters to shoot deer, as the grant of a suitably ‘conditioned’ FAC is no longer seen as sufficient, and all because someone on The Stalking Directory wishes to subject us all to mandatory Deer Management CPD and marksmanship testing.

K

And how often have you pilloried a shooting organisation or MP for these failings by FLD's?

 

[finnbear270]

Is this what all the nay sayers are trying to avoid?
Hunting is allowed throughout ******* provided certain conditions are met. Firstly, a hunting licence is required to hunt anywhere in the country. Then a hunting permit is needed for a specific type of hunting or a set period.

 

[enfieldspares]

Isn’t DSC1 being used as a way of making sure novices have at least had some instruction on the use of a centrefire rifle? Possibly also to weed out some who just want to own an CF rifle but have no other reason to do so. Isn’t this sensible and in the best interest of the majority. After all you can just apply for assessment only if you are already knowledgeable and experienced so that largely mitigates the costs. DSC1 has not founds its way into legislation or even the home office guidance so clearly remains voluntary at this stage perhaps 40 years after its initial introduction. The creeping appears to be happening slowly if at all. Perhaps it is best viewed as successful self regulation?

Surely the discovery of an applicant's experience is done at interview by the FEO when the applicant first applies for an FAC or first applies for an existing rifle held on FAC to be conditioned for deer? I do not think that there are any current, or future, persons that now or will ever posses a CF rifle simply because they "just want to own an CF rifle".

The majority? If we followed what "the majority" wanted they would likely be very few legally owned firearms in the UK. It is "the majority" that saw self-loading and pump action centrefire rifles banned back in 1988 as "the majority" (of users of rifles to shoot deer) according to what the then Minister Douglas Hogg decided, when he was told such by the Chairman of the British Deer Society had no need for such rifles for stalking.

As I have said they may even be the possibility that "the majority" of deer stalkers see no need for long bull barrel quasi-military appearance rifles fitted pistol grips and raised cheekpieces with bipods, ten shot detachable magazines, 'scopes with huge magnifications of x12 or greater, and in chamberings such as .300 Winchester Magnum or similar putting out 3,500 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

DSC 1 has in fact found its way into the thinking of a number of police forces. The last thing what we do needs is yet another "test" or "assessment" the possession of which then becomes a de facto demand at application. I would also close that the use in the garden of an air rifle from any age teaches more about safe shots and backstops and carry of shot that does six or so rounds shot in a DSC 1 test on a either an established or ad hoc range.

 

[finnbear270]

"DSC 1 has in fact found its way into the thinking of a number of police forces."
And how many FEO's are found with the knowledge to judge?
Some disgraceful activities seen on training days by those sitting in judgement.

 

[finnbear270]

"I would also close that the use in the garden of an air rifle from any age teaches more about safe shots and backstops and carry of shot that does six or so rounds shot in a DSC 1 test on a either an established or ad hoc range."
Right up until the ARV's turn up on complaint from a neighbour.

 

[finnbear270]

One item I would remove from any such voluntary system is the grading, you either make the grade judged to be sufficient / proficient, or you don't ..... Any shooting of live quarry cannot rely on a grade .... either you make the parameter or fail & consider going back into training.

German hunting students probably take 6-12 months worth of courses and then a written and oral exam, as well as weapon profiency test.

 

[bowji john]

I'm in the ''no'' camp too

However

1. Practice is as vital for shooting as for any other sport
2. Paper punching is (I would argue) an essential tool in any stalker's practice regime
3. Even if you shoot 50 deer a year - You can't really imaging that 50 shots a year makes for a competent shooter?

after all -

A blind man can shoot a 4'' target at 70 - 100m (slight exaggeration)

I have taught first time shooters for the last 7 years

Just about all of them can hit a 2" disk at 100m within 10 rds (with a .22LR) - does that make them a rifleman??

Further ...

Just about every infantry regiment in the world will be disappointed to discover that range work doesn't work

.... and that the only practice of any relevance is shooting your adversary....

Lastly

CPD is an essential part of all professions

 

[TheEngineer]

German hunting students probably take 6-12 months worth of courses and then a written and oral exam, as well as weapon profiency test.

In Germany you also have to do an exam to get a fishing license . Anyone who has ever dealt with Germans and paperwork will tell you that they love making a simple task as bureaucratic and convoluted as possible. I wouldn't be using Germany as an example of a shining light for anything regarding field sports.

 

[finnbear270]

In Germany you also have to do an exam to get a fishing license . Anyone who has ever dealt with Germans and paperwork will tell you that they love making a simple task as bureaucratic and convoluted as possible. I wouldn't be using Germany as an example of a shining light for anything regarding field sports.

Do you not remember the attack on fishing in recent years?
Probably ameliorated slightly by a certain fishing / comedy program?

 

[cutty sark]

I’ve taken out hundreds of European stalkers over the years, most of them having done some sort of intense and long shooting/hunting course, and the vast majority of them I wouldn’t have let loose with a fecking catapult, so i think we are just fine in this country for now with our dsc 1&2

 

[JMH123]

I’ve commented on this in more detail in a recent similar thread. ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is a ridiculous, wrong headed, and unhelpful suggestion- albeit I accept it is meant well.
I suspect it is promoted by people who spend more time on the range than they do actually stalking……..

 

[JMH123]

How so, would having CPD not display a mature and responsible attitude among deer managers, rather than burying our head in the sand and believing we're good enough to make it work on deer?

Christ most of the responses to this thread don't fill me with confidence in the deer stalking community. I would have thought there would be more conscientious individuals who could see the benefit of continuous professional development and quality assurance then appreciate the second/third order impact this could have in improving deer welfare.

I also will not claim the sun shines out of my backside before anyone suggests that - I have had shots go wrong, but I practice in order to mitigate that. I would attribute that practice to why my wound/miss rate is significantly lower than the average indicated in the 2014 study, despite taking difficult shots most would choose to pass up.

Anyhow, I'm out for tonight as the lack of logic is making by brain hurt.

I’m sure there are plenty of conscientious individuals taking care in their approach. It doesn’t, however, follow that they want or need a self appointed party seeking to impose another layer of admin and testing upon them, where it is not required. Those who are not conscientious would not attend your voluntary test in any event.

From someone who has to undertake CPD in professional life, I don’t welcome the prospect of it filtering into personal life.

A well intended suggestion perhaps, but hopelessly naive I’m afraid.

 

[VSS]

A few more thoughts:
1) Voluntary testing has a habit of becoming mandatory (eg, just like some police forces insisting on DSC1). We don't want that.
2) There is already a pretty good voluntary uptake on training courses etc, so I should say that CPD is well in hand already.
3) Most newcomers to stalking are enrolling on some kind of course (eg, DSC1) at the very start of their stalking journey, and undertaking some kind of test as part of that process.
4) Ranking stalkers against one another (bronze, silver, gold) is a bad idea. You either pass or fail.
5) Timed shooting has no place in stalking.
6) The "test" suggested in the OP is actually a competition. There are already range competitions for stalkers.
7) Most people can shoot well enough to humanely kill deer. It isn't poor marksmanship that's resulting in wounded animals. It's the taking of chancey or hurried shots that leads to wounding. Shots that would have been better not taken.
8) Testing at a measured 100 yards, prone or standing, is relevant to only a small proportion of shots taken in the field. Why would you want to impose such a test on someone who shoots all of their deer from a highseat at sub 50 yards (for example)?
9) Deer are worthy of no more or less respect than any other live quarry, so for the proposed "voluntary" testing to have any value it would need to be rolled out across all shooting sports that involve live targets. Including ratting with an air gun!
10) The one aspect of deer stalking that really needs to be improved is carcass presentation. There's a widespread problem with this. Far more of a problem than the possibility of a few wounded deer. If any resources are to be directed towards training and testing of stalkers then that's where the effort should be directed, not marksmanship.
11) Shooting targets is a science, whereas shooting deer is an art. The more experienced I become at stalking the more I realise that the two disciplines actually have very little in common.
12) I would probably fail.

 

[20-250]

For myself the ability to demonstrate I am maintaining my abilities and therefore are mitigating any possible issues to a landowner is invaluable

Other than corporate landowners, who the hell is going to care about your bronze award? Our sport is dying anyway, putting more obstacles in the way of the few folks who are interested in it isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Deerkeeper2]

Can’t believe 7 people have voted yes!!!!

Probably a bit in inaccuracy with the finger, maybe nerves, maybe inexperience or pressure, tapped the screen in the wrong place.

 

[Kalahari]

I’ve taken out hundreds of European stalkers over the years, most of them having done some sort of intense and long shooting/hunting course, and the vast majority of them I wouldn’t have let loose with a fecking catapult, so i think we are just fine in this country for now with our dsc 1&2

I was talking to a guide up near Stranraer, we had managed to get two roe bucks with two shots so that wasn't so bad, but he was saying that he had a European "tested" stalker earlier in the season and he had put him onto seven bucks and missed them all!

David.