Voluntary Annual Assessment - Poll

[RescueMe0007]

Good Evening All,


Following recent debate around deer stalking qualifications on various threads here I am curious to see peoples opinions on a voluntary annual assessment to demonstrate continued competency of practical marksmanship.

The assessment would offer several 'levels' to allow for 'grading' a candidates ability.

The assessment would be shot with three zeroing targets per candidate, one for each section of the assessment.

Gold
Five shots within 2" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit.
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 2" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Silver
Five shots within 3" circumference circle, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Bronze
Five shots within 4" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 5" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Ungraded
Candidate was unable to meet one or more of the criteria for Bronze, more practice/tuition is recommended.


The assessment can be shot up to twice if the candidate wished, with the higher grading of the two being the final result for that day.

The idea behind the design of the assessment being to demonstrate precision with the first target, then ability to cope under pressure with the latter two; building an appropriate position, making a good shot, then placing a follow up shot from that position within a reasonable time frame.

The bronze standard is done with the view it should roughly match a DSC One pass standard of marksmanship.


Would you take part in an annual assessment like this if it was for a very menial fee (£5-10 range fee?) which included sign off and proof of level obtained?

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts!


Ben

I'd be happy to test myself against the standards quoted. That would be a useful thing. However, I consider that having shot centrefire & rimfire rifles since 1977, having been selected for a number of shooting teams in my past, and being very conservative in my approach to safety and shooting live game, I know of nobody who has greater expertise than I already possess. (I imagine there are a large number of people on this site in the same situation) I know a number of people with similar expertise whom I would consent to have verify my performance ( I could return the favour). I draw the line at submitting to some third party agency, which lacks any authority, creates a precedent that I would be loath to do.

 

[Bowland blades]

No , purely because i have seen folks do very well in competitive rifle shooting make a right old mess of the job on very easy deer .
Paper and steel only goes so far and as above V bulls from prone at 500 plus , doesn't mean you can find the correct spot on a deer very reliably at 100

 

[.222roebuck]

I draw the line at submitting to some third party agency, which lacks any authority, creates a precedent that I would be loath to do.

Like basc for instance ?

 

[Selous]

No , purely because i have seen folks do very well in competitive rifle shooting make a right old mess of the job on very easy deer .
Paper and steel only goes so far and as above V bulls from prone at 500 plus , doesn't mean you can find the correct spot on a deer very reliably at 100

You are talking about having two different skill sets, the first one being the ability to accurately picture where vital organs lie within the body and then the ability to place the shot in that location. A stalker should be better at knowing where to shoot deer and a target shooter who practices a lot should on average be more able to place a bullet on that point of aim than a stalker who only shoots deer and doesn’t otherwise practice. To be truly competent as a stalker you should have both skills. Now before anyone gets their panties up their bum crack there are massive generalisations and huge differences between target shooters as a .22 target rifle shot who only shoots from prone may struggle more than a PRS competitor who shoots from improvised positions in all weather conditions.

 

[Bowland blades]

You are talking about having two different skill sets, the first one being the ability to accurately picture where vital organs lie within the body and then the ability to place the shot in that location. A stalker should be better at knowing where to shoot deer and a target shooter who practices a lot should on average be more able to place a bullet on that point of aim than a stalker who only shoots deer and doesn’t otherwise practice. To be truly competent as a stalker you should have both skills. Now before anyone gets their panties up their bum crack there are massive generalisations and huge differences between target shooters as a .22 target rifle shot who only shoots from prone may struggle more than a PRS competitor who shoots from improvised positions in all weather conditions.

Yes they are different from f class to PRS , however i have taken out a very good ( highly competitive ) PRS guy and frankly he was one of my least accurate of all time . There is some transfer but dont count on it . Same as shooting steel or paper DSC1 test etc .
I know some seriously good full time stalkers who fear the std dsc 1 type annual review that quite a few employers now set .

 

[Ronin]

Yes they are different from f class to PRS , however i have taken out a very good ( highly competitive ) PRS guy and frankly he was one of my least accurate of all time . There is some transfer but dont count on it . Same as shooting steel or paper DSC1 test etc .
I know some seriously good full time stalkers who fear the std dsc 1 type annual review that quite a few employers now set .

Perhaps folk should practice more on deer targets and become familiar with the shooting test Whixh they are required to do

PRS skills assist with target acquisition and positional familiarity

It does nothing for shot accuracy as the PRS targets are too large at deer “acceptable” distances in terms of ethical killing area

This isn’t aimed at you rather the context it was written ;

Folk that say they can’t shoot paper but are able to “kill any deer they shoot at”

That may be the case but paper doesn’t lie in terms of shot placement on target

Without regular practice of the perishable skill that is rifle shooting which fundamentally is more important to perform if taking sentient animals lives, people are simply fooling themselves that all is fine and dandy

May explain why many complain about non lead ammunition ,,,,,, because shot placement is poorly delivered


Maybe

 

[Bowland blades]

Perhaps folk should practice more on deer targets and become familiar with the shooting test Whixh they are required to do

PRS skills assist with target acquisition and positional familiarity

It does nothing for shot accuracy as the PRS targets are too large at deer “acceptable” distances in terms of ethical killing area

This isn’t aimed at you rather the context it was written ;

Folk that say they can’t shoot paper but are able to “kill any deer they shoot at”

That may be the case but paper doesn’t lie in terms of shot placement on target

Without regular practice of the perishable skill that is rifle shooting which fundamentally is more important to perform if taking sentient animals lives, people are simply fooling themselves that all is fine and dandy

May explain why many complain about non lead ammunition ,,,,,, because shot placement is poorly delivered


Maybe

Not sure on that one , i know a few full time pro stalkers with big numbers to do every season ( guys with 20, 30, 40 years in) who will kill a deer with each round in their mag and then continue throwing singles in for some more. Only put a target up when they swap out a scope or rifle OR something goes wrong with the kit.
On the other hand i have known and taken out a fair few very good Target lads miss or make very poor shots , dont really understand why but i suspect its nervous trigger snatching or getting the wobbles real bad ?

 

[Selous]

Not sure on that one , i know a few full time pro stalkers with big numbers to do every season ( guys with 20, 30, 40 years in) who will kill a deer with each round in their mag and then continue throwing singles in for some more. Only put a target up when they swap out a scope or rifle OR something goes wrong with the kit.
On the other hand i have known and taken out a fair few very good Target lads miss or make very poor shots , dont really understand why but i suspect its nervous trigger snatching or getting the wobbles real bad ?

The pros that you speak of are probably out with a rifle several times a week which also counts as practice to a large degree. I know that I essentially check zero every time I shoot a deer by calling my shot. If a shot hits more than an inch or so (at 100m) from where I recall the shot breaking then I check zero with a group on paper.

 

[Bowland blades]

The pros that you speak of are probably out with a rifle several times a week which also counts as practice to a large degree. I know that I essentially check zero every time I shoot a deer by calling my shot. If a shot hits more than an inch or so (at 100m) from where I recall the shot breaking then I check zero with a group on paper.

cant see how you would be able to get that good a picture of the spot on the spot you aimed at or how you could not put it down to a small wind difference or the beast being not quite as flat broadside

 

[Selous]

cant see how you would be able to get that good a picture of the spot on the spot you aimed at or how you could not put it down to a small wind difference or the beast being not quite as flat broadside

Who said it was broadside?? I know how the deer was positioned, where I aimed and where the bullet struck. What more do I need? If they don’t all match up I check zero. Surely not a difficult concept. I also know that my shot placement on a broadside deer takes the top of the heart out. If it doesn’t then I reference entrance and exit holes and if there is a discrepancy I check zero.

 

[Ronin]

Not sure on that one , i know a few full time pro stalkers with big numbers to do every season ( guys with 20, 30, 40 years in) who will kill a deer with each round in their mag and then continue throwing singles in for some more. Only put a target up when they swap out a scope or rifle OR something goes wrong with the kit.
On the other hand i have known and taken out a fair few very good Target lads miss or make very poor shots , dont really understand why but i suspect its nervous trigger snatching or getting the wobbles real bad ?

But if they practice on paper that would allow them to train out the issue

Big difference when something with a. Beating heart is about to have its life taken by you

But again, that can be trained out - if the “target lads” who you’ve taken out haven’t killed much before then the excitement / nerves or realisation of what they are doing can get the better of them


With regards professional cullers not practicing- I know many ans have been part of culling teams for many years

Never once pre “job” did I not have to participate and pass a shooting test - equivalent to and based on the OLD DSC level one test

 

[Bowland blades]

But if they practice on paper that would allow them to train out the issue

Big difference when something with a. Beating heart is about to have its life taken by you

But again, that can be trained out - if the “target lads” who you’ve taken out haven’t killed much before then the excitement / nerves or realisation of what they are doing can get the better of them

yeah you can correct faults in people just like you can dogs ( mostly )

 

[timbrayford]

Who said it was broadside?? I know how the deer was positioned, where I aimed and where the bullet struck. What more do I need? If they don’t all match up I check zero. Surely not a difficult concept. I also know that my shot placement on a broadside deer takes the top of the heart out. If it doesn’t then I reference entrance and exit holes and if there is a discrepancy I check zero.

With all due respect even a slight position change by the deer as you fire will result in a POI slightly different to where you intended, which of course is why the heart lung shot is best practice anyway.

 

[Bowland blades]

Who said it was broadside?? I know how the deer was positioned, where I aimed and where the bullet struck. What more do I need? If they don’t all match up I check zero. Surely not a difficult concept. I also know that my shot placement on a broadside deer takes the top of the heart out. If it doesn’t then I reference entrance and exit holes and if there is a discrepancy I check zero.

Really cant see this 1" off , only way to know for sure is choose the eye or the ear hole as the aim point and have a certainty of a dead 90 degree presentation, that last point alone can me 1" off . Paper target at a dead 90 certainly we all do that then put the zero correct if there is no wind but the one shot zero is a theory as much as a fact , that is why we tend to go with 3 or 5 shot group . MOA at 100 is 1/60th of a single degree approx. the inch you speak of
I cant honestly asses 5 degrees off dead square on a live beast at 100 yards

 

[JH83]

Been watching this for a few days, good lord what a can of worms Ben .

My views on this are relatively straightforward. There are levels to the game, pure recreational, professional and those of us who are a bit more than hobbyist and certainly not pro-inbetweeners. The hobbyist who shoots a few a year should not be forced (I know you didn’t suggest this) into training. We don’t need barriers to the sport-it’s daunting enough.

But if after a few years, or decades, you want to do more, and end up as part of a cull team or syndicate and are taking numbers-and want opportunity in an organisation like NT or FE (or DDM if applicable) I see no reason some CPD and regular training shouldn’t be expected.

 

[Selous]

Really cant see this 1" off , only way to know for sure is choose the eye or the ear hole as the aim point and have a certainty of a dead 90 degree presentation, that last point alone can me 1" off . Paper target at a dead 90 certainly we all do that then put the zero correct if there is no wind but the one shot zero is a theory as much as a fact , that is why we tend to go with 3 or 5 shot group . MOA at 100 is 1/60th of a single degree approx. the inch you speak of
I cant honestly asses 5 degrees off dead square on a live beast at 100 yards

And almost all the time I find my rifle is shooting spot on and the discrepancy gets chalked down to wind, angles etc but the important thing is that I check zero if the point of impact doesn’t match the called shot.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I’m really surprised there is either a lack of understanding in or acceptance of the explanation Mr Selous provides for what amounts to ‘calling’ his shots. Anyone who’s shot at paper under even the most mildly competitive scenario will know that with practice you become all too painfully aware - prior to bullet impact - of those shots released/slipped at other than the moment of perfect aim.

I therefore don’t understand why it’s such a stretch of the imagination to accept a deerstalker may be given of the same ability and in consequence be confident in knowing when to justifiably question movement of a scope’s zero.

K

 

[Free range rob]

I think (believe) the point was, when your looking at a target, you have reference points, and drift becomes obvious and if you release at wrong time most people would be aware of that, even I know when I’ve done that ! Because you have a reference, the bull, lines through and around it, any movement is quite obvious to notice.
Say a red deer shoulder, no lines, no bull, no increasing rings around it, your looking at a foot square target all the same colour and unless you can see individual hairs to notice your drifting half inch out at 100 yards is,
1, not that difficult to do
2, not that easy to notice.

Yeah I get if it’s 4-5 inches you’ve pulled it you become more aware, smaller the increment, harder it is to notice.
Whilst I consider myself a reasonably good shot, and on paper I can put some really good groups together And I know when I’ve pulled one, I couldn’t tell you if I missed my shot by half in at 100 yards on a deer, and in truth it doesn’t matter, it’s still in the vital zone and it’s a dead deer, I wouldn’t go checking my zero every time.

Unless I had cause to think it was quite a way off the poa, and had no answer as to why, crack on.

 

[Selous]

I think (believe) the point was, when your looking at a target, you have reference points, and drift becomes obvious and if you release at wrong time most people would be aware of that, even I know when I’ve done that ! Because you have a reference, the bull, lines through and around it, any movement is quite obvious to notice.
Say a red deer shoulder, no lines, no bull, no increasing rings around it, your looking at a foot square target all the same colour and unless you can see individual hairs to notice your drifting half inch out at 100 yards is,
1, not that difficult to do
2, not that easy to notice.

Yeah I get if it’s 4-5 inches you’ve pulled it you become more aware, smaller the increment, harder it is to notice.
Whilst I consider myself a reasonably good shot, and on paper I can put some really good groups together And I know when I’ve pulled one, I couldn’t tell you if I missed my shot by half in at 100 yards on a deer, and in truth it doesn’t matter, it’s still in the vital zone and it’s a dead deer, I wouldn’t go checking my zero every time.

Unless I had cause to think it was quite a way off the poa, and had no answer as to why, crack on.

I don’t think anyone mentioned 1/2 inch. I was talking about within 1 inch radius so a 2 inch diameter circle for a 100m shot of where the cross hairs were when the shot broke. I find that very achievable at normal stalking ranges.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I couldn’t tell you if I missed my shot by half in at 100 yards on a deer, and in truth it doesn’t matter, it’s still in the vital zone and it’s a dead deer, I wouldn’t go checking my zero every time.

Use the best scope rings & mounts and indeed you won’t need to.

K