Legality and Efficacy of Bowhunting in the UK
- Thread starter OllieRiordanDeer
- Start date
It's all the authorities can do to let people cull deer with a rifle and it's becoming more and more complicated as time goes on to keep your FAC. I think the path to it becoming legal to cull deer with bows and arrows in the UK is so fraught with difficulties that it's effectively impossible. A cul-de-sac. Never going to happen. Less chance than winning the Euro Millions.
Hook'N'Bullet
Well-Known Member
Why? You can walk into any sports shop and buy one. I think if they do that, it'd stifle take up. Why jump through all of those hoops for a bow?
One of the better ones I have watched and the lad placed his shot pretty much perfectly. Nevertheless it didn’t exactly drop to the shot and I counted to 10 before it dropped. With a rifle I would have shot him again!
Morkai
Well-Known Member
Being that close and seeing that amount of blood, I wouldn't.
But, it's up to each shooter.
Yes absolutely
OllieRiordanDeer
Well-Known Member
The difference is that whilst game struck with a bullet often die from shock. Bowhunting is usually from mass haemorrhage alone.
Bullets in fact produce very similar permanent cavitation to broadheads. You can easily get a 2 inch permanent wound channel with a broadhead. The difference is in the temporary cavitation (hydrostatic shock) that occurs, which for an arrow is next to nothing.
You're exceptionally unlikely to get a 'bang flop' with an arrow because mass trauma and shock to the surrounding tissues doesn't occur. However I've seen , in person, incidences where an animal is hit with an arrow and goes back to feeding before collapsing. Out of the two for my money a rifle shot produces a more extreme response indicating more stress to the animal. Obviously this is only true for well placed engine room shots. A rifle provides significantly more fudge if you're off by a couple of inches.
OllieRiordanDeer
Well-Known Member
I'd much rather take a .223 than a broadhead to my engine room!
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
The only reason you get a "bang flop" is massive disruption to the CNS causing the body to be unable to control itself. This is more likely with a rifle due to the shockwave that can cause this. However unless that damage is to the brain or very high up the neck then death is caused by a lack of oxygenated blood to the brain. This takes time regardless of whether the deer is standing, running or fallen over.
Just because a deer drops on the spot doesn't mean it's dead instantly, it could very likely still be conscious but paralysed. Dropping straight down may make the person shooting it feel better though. This is where we anthropomorphise animals and assume they know what is happening when they get hit by a bullet or arrow as we would do. There are plenty of video of people sustaining deadly injuries and carrying on because they don't know what has happened, animals do this all the time. The video above is a great visual for this, the deer had no idea what had happened and stood their until it lost consciousness. A person in the same situation would be screaming, falling about etc knowing they'd been shot with an arrow.
They don’t very often, certainly not nearly as much as bullets and they don’t carry their energy a 10th of the distance.
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tusker
Well-Known Member
result would be the same
tusker
Hook'N'Bullet
Well-Known Member
Shooting 200mm thick sheets of kingspan!
They were bought in the US when I could use the bow but now in the U.K. they are just for show and practice!
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
The main reason it won't happen (that is, archery hunting for deer in the UK) is that it reminds non-hunters, non-fieldsports people that most people who kill deer, do it for fun/love/passion/hobby. And taking pleasure in hunting is simply unpalatable across a too substantial portion of the electorate.
I make no claims about the proportion of deer killed - I'm sure a substantial majority are killed by the substantial minority of professional rangers and "deer managers" - with perhaps a significant proportion of people "in-between" - but the fact is, most of the people engaged in the activity are doing so because they want to and choose to. But the image projected is of po-faced "deer managers", preferably getting a little misty-eyed each time they look through a scope, deriving no pleasure from their work and going on and on about how ethically superior is venison when compared to "supermarket meat" (which, don't get me wrong, it is).
Deliberately making the process more challenging (dare one say "rewarding") buy choosing to hunt with a bow, where shot placement and distance to target are harder to achieve - it just looks too much like you're enjoying yourself. Almost one might say, "sporting".
It's more than a little ridiculous that archery hunting for deer is illegal, in Britain of all places, but there it is. TBH I suspect that the only way it would become legalized would be connected to making it even harder and more onerous to obtain and maintain an FAC - so the effort is probably best avoided anyway. That makes me sad for the land of my birth - but I suppose you've got to pick your battles.
This much I can say with 100% certainty - training and practicing to stalk and kill deer with a bow will make you a better hunter - even if you only ever kill deer with a rifle.
I make no claims about the proportion of deer killed - I'm sure a substantial majority are killed by the substantial minority of professional rangers and "deer managers" - with perhaps a significant proportion of people "in-between" - but the fact is, most of the people engaged in the activity are doing so because they want to and choose to. But the image projected is of po-faced "deer managers", preferably getting a little misty-eyed each time they look through a scope, deriving no pleasure from their work and going on and on about how ethically superior is venison when compared to "supermarket meat" (which, don't get me wrong, it is).
Deliberately making the process more challenging (dare one say "rewarding") buy choosing to hunt with a bow, where shot placement and distance to target are harder to achieve - it just looks too much like you're enjoying yourself. Almost one might say, "sporting".
It's more than a little ridiculous that archery hunting for deer is illegal, in Britain of all places, but there it is. TBH I suspect that the only way it would become legalized would be connected to making it even harder and more onerous to obtain and maintain an FAC - so the effort is probably best avoided anyway. That makes me sad for the land of my birth - but I suppose you've got to pick your battles.
This much I can say with 100% certainty - training and practicing to stalk and kill deer with a bow will make you a better hunter - even if you only ever kill deer with a rifle.
12gsnapcaps
Well-Known Member
My 5p - As someone who got into bows a year ago, they are very difficult to shoot accurately compared to rifles. I think bowhunting should be legal, and that ownership of bows themselves should stay off any form if certification, but that if you want to hunt with a bow, you need to pass a marksmanship test.
I’m with you on this.
I watch a lot of US videos and runners are often very long. And that’s what they show you!
We are a very different country to the states, with far more people around, especially since 2020. Losing/wounding deer is more of a PR disaster than ever before. We also live in a country where taking numbers is of an all time importance-I would suggest selecting a bow instead of rifle might not endear you to a forester/landowner.
I constantly via hear American (and British for that matter) bow hunters on various podcasts scoff at rifle shooters as inferior and unethical, I would retort that choosing an inferior tool for the sake of it, is in fact verging on unethical.
I think my major issues with it are two fold - from watching YT videos it doesn’t look like bows offer a particularly clean kill, and secondly I’m on a lot of US hunting pages on FB and the number of posts I see running along these lines during bow season is mad:
“Here’s my new compound bow - im so ready for deer season”
“Here’s me in my highseat with my bow - let’s hope a buck comes out”
“I’ve shot a buck and it’s run on - how long should I leave it before tracking?”
“Does this look like lung tissue or stomach green to you?”
“It’s been two days and we’ve had the dogs out - will the meat still be good after this long?”
Etc etc.
Now maybe I’m wrong (I’ve not hunted with a bow, full disclosure) but it seems to be far more error prone than using a rifle and it doesn’t seem to kill as well. Those are my main issues with it tbh. If someone can convince me those issues are just an incorrect perception then fine
“Here’s my new compound bow - im so ready for deer season”
“Here’s me in my highseat with my bow - let’s hope a buck comes out”
“I’ve shot a buck and it’s run on - how long should I leave it before tracking?”
“Does this look like lung tissue or stomach green to you?”
“It’s been two days and we’ve had the dogs out - will the meat still be good after this long?”
Etc etc.
Now maybe I’m wrong (I’ve not hunted with a bow, full disclosure) but it seems to be far more error prone than using a rifle and it doesn’t seem to kill as well. Those are my main issues with it tbh. If someone can convince me those issues are just an incorrect perception then fine
Cootmeurer
Well-Known Member
I doubt your viewing of forum or other social media responses is representative.I think my major issues with it are two fold - from watching YT videos it doesn’t look like bows offer a particularly clean kill, and secondly I’m on a lot of US hunting pages on FB and the number of posts I see running along these lines during bow season is mad:
“Here’s my new compound bow - im so ready for deer season”
“Here’s me in my highseat with my bow - let’s hope a buck comes out”
“I’ve shot a buck and it’s run on - how long should I leave it before tracking?”
“Does this look like lung tissue or stomach green to you?”
“It’s been two days and we’ve had the dogs out - will the meat still be good after this long?”
Etc etc.
Now maybe I’m wrong (I’ve not hunted with a bow, full disclosure) but it seems to be far more error prone than using a rifle and it doesn’t seem to kill as well. Those are my main issues with it tbh. If someone can convince me those issues are just an incorrect perception then fine
After all, people rarely post about anything easy or successful- how boring is that! Would a car driver post “well, went out turned the key, car started, and I drove off…”? No, they post, about issues and problems.
Same with hunting. After all, who wants to read a post “got out of the car, loaded the gun (or nocked an arrow), walked 20 yards, sat down, deer came out, shot it cleanly and I was back in the car in 30 minutes.” ?
LeftHandGuy
Well-Known Member
It's probably a mistake to think that the videos you are watching online are particularly representative - either of rifle or archery hunting. The vast, vast majority of hunts are not filmed.
True I would agree that the optics of a lost deer are worse in the UK- although it's also the case that the chance of recovery of a wounded deer is much greater in the UK (I'll elaborate on this if you're interested).
Probably true - to an extent - although as I said above most of us are doing this for sport rather than "management" or as their livelihood. Especially for those who are buying stalking by the beast (as I was when I first started) if you're out to take 1 cull buck because that's what you can afford, being able to more efficiently shoot more deer isn't really relevant, you'll either shoot your buck or you won't.
I must admit I've pretty much given up on hunting podcasts - and I'd agree that it's irritating to hear any hunter slagging off the method/weapon/style of any other hunter. That said, I'm not sure I've often heard archery hunters claiming ethical superiority over rifle hunters. In fact I don't think I've ever heard that - but as I say I've largely detuned from most hunting media, so there may be a rash of bow-hunting fanatics trying to lord it over everyone else. If so, they should shut up - much as I am an advocate of bow hunting, the idea that has some ethical edge over the rifle is absurd.
Is the bow is "inferior" because the rifle gives greater margin for error/sloppy shot placement (which I would agree that it does), or because it allows shooting from a greater range - or for some other reason(s)?
Is it unethical to deliberately undertake a more challenging hunt? Archery hunting is more difficult, less efficient, and more likely to produce a runner than hunting with a rifle. I can completely see why - viewed through the prism of "management" the rifle beats the bow - ditto for the subsistence hunter or smallholder. The very same factors that make archery hunting hard also make it rewarding.
It really comes down to the experience you are trying to have.
Notwithstanding all of the above - this side of the zombie-apocalypse I don't see it being allowed in the UK.
UpNorthMI
Well-Known Member
I am lucky enough to live both sides of the pond and get to participate in what is offered in both countries for deer stalking and hunting. My US base is Michigan, a state that is considered one of the best states for deer hunting and a place where bow hunting has a long history. I own a large piece of woodland which was hunted for many years by Fred Bear who was considered the godfather of US archery hunting.
I tried compound bow hunting many years ago and struggled to be competent when hunting from a tree stand, the biggest problem was that the deer would often come in so close it was difficult to assume your shooting position when you were literally right above them. The laws changed in Michigan and it became possible for all hunters to use a crossbow.
A modern crossbow is an amazing tool, it is easily possible to shoot 1” groups out to 35 yards, 2-3” groups out to 55 yards with a reasonable cross bow with a scope. In Michigan our bow hunting season is from October 1st through to December 31st, rifle or gun season is normally November 15-30th 2 weeks only. So if you want to hunt you pretty much have to bow hunt if you want to spend some time out in the woods.
I’ve grown to enjoy bow hunting more than rifle hunting, I have many locations with tree stands or tree seats, my favorite are 25’ climbing ladders that have a 3’ diameter platform with a 360 degree swiveling seat, this gives you about 25’ of elevation from the ground. October is an amazing time to be in the woods, weather is not too cold and we typically see a lot of deer. I have learnt more about deer from bow hunting than I ever did from rifle hunting.
As far as killing power or efficiency of a crossbow I will tell you that all of my shots involve a large 3 bladed broad head going straight through the deer vital organ area, most deer drop within 20 yards, some deer may make it 60-75 yards, a well placed shot results in a serious blood trail and a dead deer every time.
Bow hunting has become a social occasion to hunt with friends, a challenging pleasurable time to be outdoors and a serious necessity to be able to achieve a reasonable cull of deer from the escalating deer population.
I think the introduction of bow hunting in the UK will be very unlikely for many reasons, here in the US it is just part of the day to day hunting culture.
I’ve been thinking about offering some US bow hunting or whitetail deer hunting in exchange for some UK stalking.
I tried compound bow hunting many years ago and struggled to be competent when hunting from a tree stand, the biggest problem was that the deer would often come in so close it was difficult to assume your shooting position when you were literally right above them. The laws changed in Michigan and it became possible for all hunters to use a crossbow.
A modern crossbow is an amazing tool, it is easily possible to shoot 1” groups out to 35 yards, 2-3” groups out to 55 yards with a reasonable cross bow with a scope. In Michigan our bow hunting season is from October 1st through to December 31st, rifle or gun season is normally November 15-30th 2 weeks only. So if you want to hunt you pretty much have to bow hunt if you want to spend some time out in the woods.
I’ve grown to enjoy bow hunting more than rifle hunting, I have many locations with tree stands or tree seats, my favorite are 25’ climbing ladders that have a 3’ diameter platform with a 360 degree swiveling seat, this gives you about 25’ of elevation from the ground. October is an amazing time to be in the woods, weather is not too cold and we typically see a lot of deer. I have learnt more about deer from bow hunting than I ever did from rifle hunting.
As far as killing power or efficiency of a crossbow I will tell you that all of my shots involve a large 3 bladed broad head going straight through the deer vital organ area, most deer drop within 20 yards, some deer may make it 60-75 yards, a well placed shot results in a serious blood trail and a dead deer every time.
Bow hunting has become a social occasion to hunt with friends, a challenging pleasurable time to be outdoors and a serious necessity to be able to achieve a reasonable cull of deer from the escalating deer population.
I think the introduction of bow hunting in the UK will be very unlikely for many reasons, here in the US it is just part of the day to day hunting culture.
I’ve been thinking about offering some US bow hunting or whitetail deer hunting in exchange for some UK stalking.
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