Should that apply to the human race also?
And so it begins
- Thread starter FurReal
- Start date
Yes absolutely. But in such a complicated web there will always be contradictions.
I grew up in the Angus area of Scotland and never saw a magpie until about 10yrs ago.Maybe there are more magpies because humans killed a lot of the other birds of prey?!
As uncomfortable as it might be to some, nature will restore a balance if left alone. That balance might not be what we would like and some species would die out. 98% of species that have ever lived on earth are extinct.
I agree with reducing or removing invasive species where practical as that is another example of humans interfering with a ecosystem that is far too complex for us to understand.
I’m on this forum because I want to ethically reduce the number of deer to a population that is sustainable with the wider ecosystem. If i can feed my family and friends with the byproducts then that is a bonus. Im sorry to say it but if humans hadn’t killed off every apex predator and learned to live along side them, then the deer numbers would have been kept in better check.
I see the fear mongers come out every time wolves are mentioned, I have spend months in the wilderness in multiple countries with large wolf populations and have never been concerned or even heard of people having a dangerous encounter. I have seen several wolves in the wild and each time, they give a long stare and then run off.
I would question what the real motive for people who feel the need to shoot anything that preys on something else.
I know this will fall 99% fall on deaf ears, but hearing an alternate perspective is not a bad thing and forums like this can easily become echo chambers of a single view.
Just my thoughts
There were also fewer larger birds of prey in the area.
Now I’m regularly taken about 10 magpies from my mum’s garden and regularly see buzzards and hawks circling.
So your opening sentence doesn’t stand in that area.
My mum, by no means an expert in any subject or even an amateur bird watcher, has commented that the bird song has decreased over the last few years.
With regards to apex predators, there are numerous issues.
Sheep farming here is different from the continent. You just have to watch Crufts and see the different European shepherd dogs as compared to our collie dogs to see that and maybe even try to understand it.
The European dogs are bred to protect, our’s are to round up.
Apex predators will continue to find food, so if the primary target is deer, do you think those wolves will stop breeding when the deer population drops?
I doubt it as long as there are other viable food sources, whether in the country or the town.
I know of a few hills in the Southern Uplands where foxes were controlled. The hills were alive with bird life and hares.
That stopped and the badgers moved in as well. The area is now devoid of all wildlife and the predators have moved on.
I hope you make your feelings, about controlling predators, known to the like of the RSPB and not just here.
Lastly what’s your thoughts about the eradication of stoats in Orkneys and hedgehogs in the Western Isles? Should those populations have been left?
Every pet cat should be fitted with a bell if allowed to roam freely beyond the comfort of its kitchen.
K
K
Rubbish! We are being over-run by people who cannot/will not support themselves.
Our adaptability is one of the main reasons that we have been able to (over)populate and dominate in all climatic conditions.
We might not be as fast/strong/big/venomous/poisonous/armoured as many animals but we have far greater cognitive abilities which has allowed us to think our way to the top.
IE work the system. Nothing to do with fitness! The welfare benefit system that socialist policies have been forced on us by do-gooders is contrary to your 'survival of the fittest' mantra.
Well, going off topic slightly, but…
I didn’t say survival of the fittest, I said the strongest and most adaptable will survive.
If the aim of our species is to breed and spread to ensure our survival then surely looking after the less fortunate members will increase that
Maybe people who use the welfare system are just adapting to their environment to ensure their survival. It doesn’t matter how strong/fast/dangerous you are if you can’t adapt to your environment.
Len the dog
Well-Known Member
So you’re not in favour of letting nature sort that one out too?
Deer populations are too high because the amount of available land has reduced and their natural predators were removed, both causal factors are directly because of man.
Whether we like it or not, man has intervened in the natural balance of things and not in a good way for most species, corvids however have benefited greatly.
'Playing God'!! like our Welfare State encouraging breeding among people who cannot work/won't work.
Left to interfereing do-gooders, we will be over-run by vermin, be they winged, 4-legged or 2-legged.
sikamalc
Administrator
Strange, I was only thinking a short time ago about how much the area where I was born and brought up had changed. Possibly because of a new TV crime drama called Whitstable Pearl, which we viewed last night.
Areas where I played, fished, collected butterflies, moths, camped, caught frogs and newts......................all gone. Now under piles of concrete and houses. Even the large area of woodland outside of Whitstable, Clowes wood. An FC wood that no one every went into. Access was difficult, as there was no where to park off the country road that briefly skirts one edge.
I used to cycle or walk into the back part and fish in one of the old steam holes that was part of the old Crab and Winkle line railway. All 3 species of newt were present, and it was a hidden oasis. Green Hairstreak butterlies, Pearl Bordered Fritilaries, Brimstone and lots of glow worms were always to be found. Nightjars were common too. Now its been opened up to the masses, and the hidden pond is nothing more than a mud hole. The tracks around the wood are swarming with dog walkers, bike riders and public in general, who seem to delight in throwing their litter around.
One of my other areas that I used to play in was an old fruit orchard, now a huge Tescos, and the old Thanet Way now diverted across more countryside, has put a huge scar through farmland and woodland that I also explored and visited during my early youth.
The local downland outside Whitstable is now turning into a vast building programme, with houses galore. Not much of anything left now. The changes over the past 30 years have been staggering. Its difficult to see where it will all end.
This above everything else is where we are loosing what little we have left of our precious countryside. HS2 to my mind has been a total waste of tax payers money, and has destroyed large areas of ancient woodland, not to mention destroyed small village communities. All of this has an impact on our wildlife, none of it for the better either.
I moved to the far south end of Kent some 14 years ago, to a small village on the coast. We have a large area behind our home that has no houses, called the Romney Marsh. The canal that runs through our area is a haven for wildlife, I fish it with my grandson. Local people are friendly, and are against any new builds ruining the area. Rye, and the border with East Sussex is not far off, and there have been little or no changes in the area since we moved here. Looking out of my window to the marsh/farmland at the rear of my home at night, there is NO light pollution. Total darkness. A rare thing to find in Kent.
Yes we have Magpies, and Foxes, but we still have a reasonable songbird population, although not as many as I would like to see. But then we have grass snakes and kingfishers, and plenty of ducks.
The UK is a small country, with a great many people, coming up to 70 million now, I believe? There is little room for everyone, and nature takes a low priority when it comes to housing developments, and industry.
Re introducing wolves, bears, Lynx is not going to solve a growing problem of population growth. Long term it will cause more issues in my opinion. Magpies, crows, Grey Squirrels etc, all need controlling. But the main problem in my opinion is the total destruction of the countryside, that to me, has now spiraled out of control.
Areas where I played, fished, collected butterflies, moths, camped, caught frogs and newts......................all gone. Now under piles of concrete and houses. Even the large area of woodland outside of Whitstable, Clowes wood. An FC wood that no one every went into. Access was difficult, as there was no where to park off the country road that briefly skirts one edge.
I used to cycle or walk into the back part and fish in one of the old steam holes that was part of the old Crab and Winkle line railway. All 3 species of newt were present, and it was a hidden oasis. Green Hairstreak butterlies, Pearl Bordered Fritilaries, Brimstone and lots of glow worms were always to be found. Nightjars were common too. Now its been opened up to the masses, and the hidden pond is nothing more than a mud hole. The tracks around the wood are swarming with dog walkers, bike riders and public in general, who seem to delight in throwing their litter around.
One of my other areas that I used to play in was an old fruit orchard, now a huge Tescos, and the old Thanet Way now diverted across more countryside, has put a huge scar through farmland and woodland that I also explored and visited during my early youth.
The local downland outside Whitstable is now turning into a vast building programme, with houses galore. Not much of anything left now. The changes over the past 30 years have been staggering. Its difficult to see where it will all end.
This above everything else is where we are loosing what little we have left of our precious countryside. HS2 to my mind has been a total waste of tax payers money, and has destroyed large areas of ancient woodland, not to mention destroyed small village communities. All of this has an impact on our wildlife, none of it for the better either.
I moved to the far south end of Kent some 14 years ago, to a small village on the coast. We have a large area behind our home that has no houses, called the Romney Marsh. The canal that runs through our area is a haven for wildlife, I fish it with my grandson. Local people are friendly, and are against any new builds ruining the area. Rye, and the border with East Sussex is not far off, and there have been little or no changes in the area since we moved here. Looking out of my window to the marsh/farmland at the rear of my home at night, there is NO light pollution. Total darkness. A rare thing to find in Kent.
Yes we have Magpies, and Foxes, but we still have a reasonable songbird population, although not as many as I would like to see. But then we have grass snakes and kingfishers, and plenty of ducks.
The UK is a small country, with a great many people, coming up to 70 million now, I believe? There is little room for everyone, and nature takes a low priority when it comes to housing developments, and industry.
Re introducing wolves, bears, Lynx is not going to solve a growing problem of population growth. Long term it will cause more issues in my opinion. Magpies, crows, Grey Squirrels etc, all need controlling. But the main problem in my opinion is the total destruction of the countryside, that to me, has now spiraled out of control.
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Ratcatcher
Well-Known Member
The problem as I see it with ross22 argument is the artificial feeding stations set up all aver the country to feed the predatory species, if they weren't there then buzzards red kites et al would die off in times of limited prey allowing the prey species to recover, unfortunately it's these birds which raise the finance's of the major " conservation" groups, so no hope long term for many of the prey species
Dreamer!If the aim of our species is to breed and spread to ensure our survival then surely looking after the less fortunate members will increase that
Dairy farmers don't spend generations developing their herds by breeding from the rubbish.
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
There is a reasonably logical opinion that the rise in carrion is due to the increase in roadkill due to the increase in cars n the road!
BenBhoy
Well-Known Member
I actually agree with some of what you've said. But we've already messed up the balance. Surely we have a responsibility to try and readdress that? It's not just about controlling some species, it includes farming & mindset change at government level. Personally I carry out predator control & on my small patch it's making a difference. I think it'd be a travesty if my kids couldn't hear skylarks when they're older or watch covey of grey partridge explode up and over the hedge. By the time nature found her level again, we'd have lost those birds for good. Shame on any countryman happily condoning practice that leads to that outcome.Maybe there are more magpies because humans killed a lot of the other birds of prey?!
As uncomfortable as it might be to some, nature will restore a balance if left alone. That balance might not be what we would like and some species would die out. 98% of species that have ever lived on earth are extinct.
I agree with reducing or removing invasive species where practical as that is another example of humans interfering with a ecosystem that is far too complex for us to understand.
I’m on this forum because I want to ethically reduce the number of deer to a population that is sustainable with the wider ecosystem. If i can feed my family and friends with the byproducts then that is a bonus. Im sorry to say it but if humans hadn’t killed off every apex predator and learned to live along side them, then the deer numbers would have been kept in better check.
I see the fear mongers come out every time wolves are mentioned, I have spend months in the wilderness in multiple countries with large wolf populations and have never been concerned or even heard of people having a dangerous encounter. I have seen several wolves in the wild and each time, they give a long stare and then run off.
I would question what the real motive for people who feel the need to shoot anything that preys on something else.
I know this will fall 99% fall on deaf ears, but hearing an alternate perspective is not a bad thing and forums like this can easily become echo chambers of a single view.
Just my thoughts
Raptor populations are at very high levels these days, especially those few that would take magpie as a quarry.
Totally agree which is why I would personally be in favour of reintroducing predators (I know there are downsides, but there are with everything)
I personally don’t buy into the belief that killing more predators (Corvids, raptors, foxes) will help redress the balance.
I understand that this situation has been created by man, but I really feel that nature knows best and if we were to use our might to try to bring our natural environment back to a level that is more in balance with natures needs and human needs then that is no bad thing.
More regenerative farming than rewilding every farm and learning to live alongside the good and bad of the natural world rather that remove the ‘bad’ and protect the ‘good’
Again just my thoughts I’m genuinely interested in hearing others
I personally don’t buy into the belief that killing more predators (Corvids, raptors, foxes) will help redress the balance.
I understand that this situation has been created by man, but I really feel that nature knows best and if we were to use our might to try to bring our natural environment back to a level that is more in balance with natures needs and human needs then that is no bad thing.
More regenerative farming than rewilding every farm and learning to live alongside the good and bad of the natural world rather that remove the ‘bad’ and protect the ‘good’
Again just my thoughts I’m genuinely interested in hearing others
BenBhoy
Well-Known Member
I've worked on this farm for 8 years. My official title is probably shepherd, but in truth I do lot more than just look after the sheep; all the day to day running, 90% of time alone.
Before I started there was no predator control of any sort. There also wasn't much in the way of biodiversity.
Long story short, I've made big changes. Not purely within my role, but because I'm a countryman (a proper one mr packham) I made changes to benefit wildlife here. Changes to herbicide spraying, changes to mowing schedules, hedge maintenance, nest boxes, supplementary feeding birds, the list goes on. But a big part of it has been predator control. I shoot foxes, corvids & rats. I trap corvids rats & mustelids.
The change in less than 10 year is extraordinary in terms of bird, mammal, insect & butterfly life here now.
IMO that is what reassessing the balance shod mean
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Ratcatcher
Well-Known Member
Which predators? Wolves, lynx, are they to be fenced allowed to roam free, this all seems a little half baked to me
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