Why shoot the foxes?

[finnbear270]

I don’t live in Disneyland but I no longer control corvids, fox or mustelides unless they actually cause me problems.
It makes very little difference unless you’re dealing with a population that’s particularly susceptible to the effects of predation.
If you believe that you are doing some good and enhancing livestock, songbird and wildlife survival rates by slaughtering vermin , knock yourself out.
With respect, I strongly suspect that you don’t have the statistics to back your claims up, and that you are not actually achieving anything.
Threads like this are filled with people claiming that their own personal predator pogroms are benefiting both wildlife and farming, precious few supply evidence to support that claim.
There are exceptions, primarily during the nesting season, but not enough to justify the “any fox is a bad fox”or “any crow is a bad crow” and the “shoot on sight” policy whenever possible so many of you seem to espouse.
A magpie is just a magpie, it’s trying to make a living, so is a fox, a stoat or a mink, admittedly they do cause problems at certain times of the year or in certain places.
So control them then, you’ll be far more effective and save yourself a shedload of work besides.
Most of the time they do no harm and if we left them alone their population would settle down at the level the ecosystem can sustain
Let them off.
If their population is actually out of control as many of you claim, that’s because WE, the shooters and farmers, are pumping excess protein into the environment.
Game shooting and farming is the pump that delivers that protein, you can’t blame the wildlife, all the wildlife, for taking advantage of our largesse.

For a few moments there, I thought I was reading from the LACS.

 

[Mr Tree]

Used to service a farm in Dodleston regularly, foxes crapping in the feed rails, dropped calves went off to Neston Uni for testing I think, Neospora.

Its a terrible thing, you raise a cow for 18 months, first calf she has is aborted at six months, financially its a disaster! You make a decision to cull the cow as well. Cows can recover but I was not willing to take the chance, in a pedigree herd of South Devons, its a tough one. We had no more cases after the first year, needless to say I bought some night vision & went to town on the foxes. In the first two years I killed over 150 on a small family farm, this year I haven't seen a fox since last September. "Kill em, & kill em good"

 

[Dunwaters]

I honestly wonder if some of the people on here ever go outside
I dont want an argument with you Dunwater - but what a load of total tosh - even the RSPB now acknowledges how important predator control is

I do keep record
I do try and exterminate all vermin
I am PROUD of the the results we are achieving

I never said that predator control wasn’t necessary in certain situations , it is, what I said was that the wholesale and indiscriminate killing of predators is a waste of time and achieves nothing.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Any reduction in live loss can be reduced additional proofing works etc but removal does help, Will there come a time whereupon high. Mortality stock will be destined to internal permanent sheep pens like factory units to reduce natural mortality rates or will the cost see traditionally sheep turf-turned over to arable

Cheers

Phil

With regard to the above, it became more common to lamb earlier. So more lambed inside as it was not viable outside. Even with pens inside "secure" buildings they were not as safe from a visit as you would hope.

You dont listen Alex - you have your views and as i say i do keep records - and it is more complex than just predator control as touched on above with the 3 legged stool
But, if you spend time in the countryside, respectfully its so blindingly obvious the damage done by generalist predators that i should never need to try and convince anyone - a newbie yes - a seasoned wildlife enthusiast - no

This I would reply to the comments above and below.
When I was a child in the Dales I recall my sister's and many other kids singing/saying One for sorrow etc when spotting a Magpie. With the Duke of Devonshire's estate to the south and another large estate the north, and surrounded by Grouse moors. Predator control was such that they rarely got past "Four for a boy". So what? A simple question considering in the same areas I often see too many to count. What do they eat?
By healthy population do they mean the ones that survive after the excess have starved once the prey dies off?

I never said that predator control wasn’t necessary in certain situations , it is, what I said was that the wholesale and indiscriminate killing of predators is a waste of time and achieves nothing.

 

[Smellydog]

Is not everything a waste of time, like squabbling here....

 

[Mr Tree]

Is not everything a waste of time, like squabbling here....

Theres only one thing I hate more than foxes, & that's Politicians, especially when they open their mouths. Unfortunately they're a protected species!

 

[Smellydog]

Theres only one thing I hate more than foxes, & that's Politicians, especially when they open their mouths. Unfortunately they're a protected species!

Absolutely %

 

[finnbear270]

Just back from a short walk round the outlying paths on the village margins, wished I'd had a video camera, mega consternation from several Blackbirds ... a few paces further down under the overhanging stuff & we bumped a Tawny Owl trying to rob a nest, only six feet off the ground, I bet it is was cursing us as it got out from the thickets.

 

[Overlay]

With regard to the above, it became more common to lamb earlier. So more lambed inside as it was not viable outside. Even with pens inside "secure" buildings they were not as safe from a visit as you would hope.

This I would reply to the comments above and below.
When I was a child in the Dales I recall my sister's and many other kids singing/saying One for sorrow etc when spotting a Magpie. With the Duke of Devonshire's estate to the south and another large estate the north, and surrounded by Grouse moors. Predator control was such that they rarely got past "Four for a boy". So what? A simple question considering in the same areas I often see too many to count. What do they eat?
By healthy population do they mean the ones that survive after the excess have starved once the prey dies off?

Don’t know if you read VSS earlier thread re lamb mortality, it opened your eyes to the bald fact due to losses it was going towards being a loss leader due solely on a very high mortality which wasn’t all down to foxes, in fact foxes were shown to take a lot less live or carrion food than problematic illness, cold and wet, albeit lower, the need to protect live lambs is even more important than previously thought when you gauge it against the overall cause of huge losses
Removing foxes should be stepped up all year round rather than a few short hectic lambing weeks it gives other wildlife a chance as well

 

[Mr Tree]

Absolutely %

At Last...... someone on here gets my sense of humour! Thanks SD.

 

[BenBhoy]

primarily during the nesting season

carried out intensive fox and carrion crow control during the nesting season

That's the key phrase - during nesting & brood rearing season control is most beneficial.

 

[finnbear270]

During nesting is when the predation is already under way.

 

[BenBhoy]

During nesting is when the predation is already under way.

For fox I go out January - end of August. Corvids i target (failed this year ) from Feb - July.

 

[Dunwaters]

During nesting is when the predation is already under way.

Think about it, most birds are only prone to fox and crow predation while nesting or while they’re flightless either because of eclipse or because they’re not yet fledged.
Theres very little point in shooting either of them between August and February unless you are releasing game birds or keeping free range poultry.
You’d be better off waiting until they establish their territory and then targeting the individuals whose breeding territory overlaps your area of concern. That does make an impact, you generally don’t need to shoot or trap all year round.

 

[VSS]

Its a terrible thing, you raise a cow for 18 months, first calf she has is aborted at six months, financially its a disaster! You make a decision to cull the cow as well. Cows can recover but I was not willing to take the chance, in a pedigree herd of South Devons, its a tough one. We had no more cases after the first year, needless to say I bought some night vision & went to town on the foxes. In the first two years I killed over 150 on a small family farm, this year I haven't seen a fox since last September. "Kill em, & kill em good"

You did the right thing to cull the cow, sad though it is.
Vertical transmission (from cow to calf) is what maintains neospora in an infected herd.

 

[jall55]

That's the key phrase - during nesting & brood rearing season control is most beneficial.

I disagree Ben
Predators should be culled very hard before breeding season - much much less chance of leaving welfare issues

 

[jall55]

Think about it, most birds are only prone to fox and crow predation while nesting or while they’re flightless either because of eclipse or because they’re not yet fledged.
Theres very little point in shooting either of them between August and February unless you are releasing game birds or keeping free range poultry.
You’d be better off waiting until they establish their territory and then targeting the individuals whose breeding territory overlaps your area of concern. That does make an impact, you generally don’t need to shoot or trap all year round.

Shoot them all year - very very difficult to get on top of foxes once the cover is up like it is now
Far less welfare issues if you shoot before they breed

 

[Dunwaters]

Shoot them all year - very very difficult to get on top of foxes once the cover is up like it is now
Far less welfare issues if you shoot before they breed

Theres no need.
Depending, on why you’re doing it.
If you’re controlling foxes or corvids to protect sensitive ground nesting bird populations, let them establish their territories and then take them out of your core area and the surroundings. You don’t need to get them all, get one of a pair of crows and the nest will fail. One bird is also unlikely to be able to hold a territory .
Targeted control measures will significantly reduce predation in your core area. The numbers of vermin will bounce back as the young of the year become independent and start to establish their own territories, typically July or August, by then your ground nesting whatevers should have fledged and be pretty much immune to predation.
A large proportion of this years vermin crop will die off from natural causes over the winter all on their own whether you shoot them or not, why make work for yourself? Wait until spring and cull the survivors and the breeders.
You’ll save yourself time money and ammunition.

If you’re controlling foxes and crows because you want to release poults or run free range poultry, that’s a different matter.
You are creating the problem yourself by putting dumb, easily predated protein out in the countryside.
You can absolutely guarantee that you will attract every critter with pretensions to be a predator onto your patch, and you will attract them in high numbers because of the concentrated protein source that you provide.
You do indeed need to shoot on sight for most of the year, but you also need to accept that the problem wouldn’t exist if you weren’t artificially pumping all that extra protein into the environment.
Stop injecting the excess protein into the environment and your predator populations will drop back to whatever level local resources can support.
You may also wish to concede that in this instance the only thing that you are protecting is a financial investment.

 

[Nickb]

Theres no need.
Depending, on why you’re doing it.
If you’re controlling foxes or corvids to protect sensitive ground nesting bird populations, let them establish their territories and then take them out of your core area and the surroundings. You don’t need to get them all, get one of a pair of crows and the nest will fail. One bird is also unlikely to be able to hold a territory .
Targeted control measures will significantly reduce predation in your core area. The numbers of vermin will bounce back as the young of the year become independent and start to establish their own territories, typically July or August, by then your ground nesting whatevers should have fledged and be pretty much immune to predation.
A large proportion of this years vermin crop will die off from natural causes over the winter all on their own whether you shoot them or not, why make work for yourself? Wait until spring and cull the survivors and the breeders.
You’ll save yourself time money and ammunition.

If you’re controlling foxes and crows because you want to release poults or run free range poultry, that’s a different matter.
You are creating the problem yourself by putting dumb, easily predated protein out in the countryside.
You can absolutely guarantee that you will attract every critter with pretensions to be a predator onto your patch, and you will attract them in high numbers because of the concentrated protein source that you provide.
You do indeed need to shoot on sight for most of the year, but you also need to accept that the problem wouldn’t exist if you weren’t artificially pumping all that extra protein into the environment.
Stop injecting the excess protein into the environment and your predator populations will drop back to whatever level local resources can support.
You may also wish to concede that in this instance the only thing that you are protecting is a financial investment.

Christ are you Packham in disguise

 

[Dunwaters]

Christ are you Packham in disguise

Hang on I’ll check.

No, definitely not, the Land Rover at the gate isn’t on fire.
Neither is the gate.

Admit it, I’m making sense, there’s really no point in trying to kill them all, all the time.