Pine Martins in the South West. Yeh or ney?

[Trickyd66]

So the SW Pinemartin project is going ahead. Any opinions? (Specifically the "living with Pine martins")

Pine martens on your land - Pine Martens Bounce Back

Pine Martens on Your Land Navigating challenges with pine martens Support and Resources for Landowners Bringing back species, particularly a critically endangered predator like a pine marten, is complicated. It can bring challenges to a range of people – from those interested in vulnerable...

twomoorspinemartens.org

 

[Goingback]

A few photos locally of them in urban locations around here. I think that the same 'hero' that released the polecats which now abound has been at it again.
Always predators............never waders or other endangered.

 

[Trickyd66]

A few photos locally of them in urban locations around here. I think that the same 'hero' that released the polecats which now abound has been at it again.
Always predators............never waders or other endangered.

There are a few around Somerset at present, but there is a release programme underway for Exmoor/ Dartmoor to reduce the number of grey squirrel, reducing damage to forestry and allowing Red squirrel to be reintroduced. Two Moors Pine Marten project timeline | Devon Wildlife Trust

 

[big ears]

Yes definitely a good idea. They will eat the slow fat grey ones first. Could be a good answer to our grey squirrel problem.

 

[jall55]

Terrible idea - yet again
Another predator - more pressure on ground nesters
Get the bottom of the pyramid right first
Sadly just all about money
I have engaged with Devon Wildlife Trust and advised my opinions

 

[Ratel]

When you have seen their work and how efficient they are at it (better than mink) you will not want them. The load of box.you hear about them being the answer to grey squirrels is exactly that. They will take the Reds just as quickly, believe one who has seen it. They will also decimate the overall bird population as they can get to any nest. Just my opinion having lived among them, large lethal vampires of the weasel family.

 

[old keeper]

Terrible idea - yet again
Another predator - more pressure on ground nesters
Get the bottom of the pyramid right first
Sadly just all about money
I have engaged with Devon Wildlife Trust and advised my opinions

As a matter of interest, did you get a response from Devon Wildlife Trust?
The last thing we want here is yet another predator, in my lifetime I've seen what was a fairly balanced nature setup gradually overtaken by more and more predatory species, both avian and ground-based. Vermin of all types is undoubtedly on the increase to the detriment of many other species. Unless they impress upon the pine martens that they are only allowed to kill and eat grey squirrels, I can only see this being yet another case of people who seem to know little about the countryside causing far more problems than they solve.

 

[jall55]

As a matter of interest, did you get a response from Devon Wildlife Trust?
The last thing we want here is yet another predator, in my lifetime I've seen what was a fairly balanced nature setup gradually overtaken by more and more predatory species, both avian and ground-based. Vermin of all types is undoubtedly on the increase to the detriment of many other species. Unless they impress upon the pine martens that they are only allowed to kill and eat grey squirrels, I can only see this being yet another case of people who seem to know little about the countryside causing far more problems than they solve.

Yes i did - and in fairness the gent i spoke to was the most knowledgeable / articulate chap i have ever engaged with on many issues,

He outlined the project was to do with funding and that they were trying to get the bottom rung right - he did believe they would only (mainly) kill greys however which i pointed out was rubbish in my opinion. He was not worried about predation as he believed the density they would operate at would be minimal - I again refuted this point and advised him to investigate other predators that are meant to have "territories" as such.

He asked me if i would stop posting "negative" facts about Martens - and at that we agreed to differ and i continue to post and respond to consultations

 

[sikamalc]

Well as a species we have managed to eradicate and destroy a lot of wildlife worldwide, let alone in the UK. Introducing species back into areas where they have long been eradicated is not everyone's cup of tea, and raises all sorts of issues.
However for certain species I am slightly more in favour of reintroduction. Its true that PM will take Grey Squirrels, and we could do with eradicating these non native animals, without a doubt. Maybe with a serious reduction in their numbers, it will encourage Red Squirrels to return or spread again, without the threat of catching Squirrel pox.
Its true Pine martens are good at getting into all sorts of places, and can do damage to ground nesting birds. Badgers, foxes, Grey Squirrels, stoats, rats and humans are also responsible as well.
I think it will be sometime before we know how any re introduction in the West Country works out, but I for one am slightly in favour of it. I have seen Pine Martens a number of times when in Scotland on various leases or permissions. In the past I used to see Wild Cats too, but those are very rare events these days.

 

[old keeper]

Yes i did - and in fairness the gent i spoke to was the most knowledgeable / articulate chap i have ever engaged with on many issues,

He outlined the project was to do with funding and that they were trying to get the bottom rung right - he did believe they would only (mainly) kill greys however which i pointed out was rubbish in my opinion. He was not worried about predation as he believed the density they would operate at would be minimal - I again refuted this point and advised him to investigate other predators that are meant to have "territories" as such.

He asked me if i would stop posting "negative" facts about Martens - and at that we agreed to differ and i continue to post and respond to consultations

Thanks for that, Jail.

What intrigues me about introducing martens to remove grey squirrels is that without a doubt, they will, like many other predators be protected. Their numbers will undoubtedly increase and in theory, as grey squirrels decrease in numbers, and again in theory, reds will increase, surely the martens will remove reds as well. or am I missing something?

 

[jall55]

Thanks for that, Jail.

What intrigues me about introducing martens to remove grey squirrels is that without a doubt, they will, like many other predators be protected. Their numbers will undoubtedly increase and in theory, as grey squirrels decrease in numbers, and again in theory, reds will increase, surely the martens will remove reds as well. or am I missing something?

Totally agree - its the little guys that will get smashed to bits - why chase squirrels when ground nesting birds will be so much easier - animals like dormice - ducks and ducklings will be easy prey

 

[sikamalc]

Thanks for that, Jail.

What intrigues me about introducing martens to remove grey squirrels is that without a doubt, they will, like many other predators be protected. Their numbers will undoubtedly increase and in theory, as grey squirrels decrease in numbers, and again in theory, reds will increase, surely the martens will remove reds as well. or am I missing something?

I had a lease for 18 years in Scotland. Part of which is Old Caledonian forest. I gave it up some 5 or 6 years back as they had started to fence the entire area off.

I fairly regularly would see Pine Marten, or their droppings through out the forest. It covered some 1000 acres, but the entire lease was about 8000.
About half way through my tenure they decided to re introduce Red Squirrels to the old forest. There were no Grey's present, and plenty of Otters and Pine Martens.

The reds thrived and have spread down the strath, and are now regularly seen. It appears in this instance the re introduction of Red Squirrels has worked well, with the Pine Martens seemingly not having a huge impact.

 

[Moose67]

Vermin of all types is undoubtedly on the increase to the detriment of many other species. Unless they impress upon the pine martens that they are only allowed to kill and eat grey squirrels, I can only see this being yet another case of people ...

A larger problem for the bottom rung is the unrestricted predation from ever increasing numbers of 'domestic' cats

 

[glasshalffull]

A larger problem for the bottom rung is the unrestricted predation from ever increasing numbers of 'domestic' cats

The martins will mop the cat's up

 

[jall55]

If anyone cares to look on Devon Willdlife trusts site under FAQ about Pine Marten - it states squirrel make up a very small proportion of their diet

 

[old keeper]

I had a lease for 18 years in Scotland. Part of which is Old Caledonian forest. I gave it up some 5 or 6 years back as they had started to fence the entire area off.

I fairly regularly would see Pine Marten, or their droppings through out the forest. It covered some 1000 acres, but the entire lease was about 8000.
About half way through my tenure they decided to re introduce Red Squirrels to the old forest. There were no Grey's present, and plenty of Otters and Pine Martens.

The reds thrived and have spread down the strath, and are now regularly seen. It appears in this instance the re introduction of Red Squirrels has worked well, with the Pine Martens seemingly not having a huge impact.

I take your point. The difference down here is that there are a great many small patches of woodland, mainly deciduous which I would suspect would prove a happy hunting ground for the martens.

 

[mudman]

Part of me thinks they should be here, and part of me thinks they would be massive problems to any reared game shoot

 

[Ratel]

Well I have worked among them in Scotland, Ireland and Cumbria. I can only say what I have seen on many occasions, and that is PM's killing Red squirrels, Grey squirrels, Pheasants, Grouse, lots of small bird predation both chicks and nests. Always remember they can hunt by night as well. Another killer reintroduced by idiots who care nothing for other species their focussed predator will kill. Grey squirrel eradication my a..e more likely Dormice, nightingales, etc etc,etc.

 

[Apthorpe]

I don't see them being a benefit in most of Devon. Regardless of whether they are beneficial across Scotland or other places, the environment is very different. Without engaging in the points of controversy, a few things are absolutely certain.
1. If they are released in the national parks, the first direction they will spread is out of them into neighbouring lowland areas.
2. Any predator tends to eat most of the easiest prey. Grey squirrels are not the easiest thing on their menu. A variety of other species of conservation concern are.
3. Predators didn't get hunted to extinction for no reason.
4. Accommodating these creatures will involve accepting a very high level of damage to other species, and habitats. Reintroductions have effects and costs, and the fact that the scientists promoting them don't detect those effects properly, nor compensate the costs, doesn't alter the fact of their existence.
Rather than engaging in these sorts of reintroductions essentially purely for media attention, they would do far more good arranging for the eradication of grey squirrels (and other invasive species). If the environment is healthy for these predators, they will re-establish themselves anyway without human interaction.

 

[Mickeydredd]

I've never understood the logic of a plan that tries to reduce numbers of small predators by introducing a much larger, more efficient predator that will predate every species that the smaller one currently does, just in larger quantities.