FEO calling old references

[DVS1]

I was always led to believe this would be the norm if referees were changed.

I'd have thought the initial question would be to the FAC holder and then if desired a follow up call to the old referee to confirm what has been said by the FAC holder. An easy way to look into the suitability and character of the FAC holder.

I see no issue with it in all fairness and I'd expect it to be the norm.

 

[Apthorpe]

No.

It was a rhetorical question, but go on some more, about how they are breaching your Civil Liberties.

I shouldn't need to. If you're finding you don't hold civil liberties as being of paramount importance, then you ought to take a while to reflect on that.
The Police ought to hold civil liberties in extremely high regard, rather than seeing how much they can get away with abusing them. One needs to distinguish between living in a civilised, democratic state and living in an authoritarian tyranny. The Police ought to be on top of that, instead of trying to slide down the slippery slope.
I note that no actual justification for these unnecessary enquiries has been offered.

 

[Stalker62]

I shouldn't need to. If you're finding you don't hold civil liberties as being of paramount importance, then you ought to take a while to reflect on that.

OK, I will.


Actually, on second thoughts, I'm good.

The Police ought to hold civil liberties in extremely high regard...etc etc etc

Not sure how Police checking on the suitability of one to possess firearms, is an infringement on anyone's Civil Liberties. You may see it as such, I simply do not.

They can speak to my referees (half now dead), they can speak to my employers, they can speak to my Priest (OK I lied about a Priest, I don't have one, but I do have a Doctor and they will speak to them), they can speak to anyone they like, in coming to a determination of my suitability (or otherwise) to own firearms - I simply do not care.









Would love to chat some more, but I am unpacking from a recent trip and need to clean my rifle...




Would also love to read anything you post on any shooting you do.

 

[Mungo]

I’m in the process of my first renewal and I’d changed my references - both were people I worked with last time, and now both are friends with FACs. The FEO called the old references asking if we’d fallen out or if there’s any reason I shouldn’t have a gun.
Is this normal? It’s quite a clever move, but has left me slightly paranoid.

Totally normal. Happened to me every time I’ve renewed and changed references

 

[Whitefront]

I have used different referees for most of my renewals (35 years SGC, 15 years FAC).
I think it looks better that way. Otherwise the FEO might think I'm a miserable loner who's been through his whole life with only 2 friends.
(OK, so I am, but they don't need to know that ).

If you change referees, it is now standard practice to ring the former ones to ask why they are no longer listed, and the new ones will almost certainly be contacted as well, if only because they are new. The net result is more work for the police, more stages to go through, and a greater likelihood of a delay.

 

[eggy74]

I don't see anywhere on the paperwork where there is a time limit on when they can contact your nominated ref.

 

[ColinJ]

@Stalker1962 I admire your patience, engaging with a buffoon I blocked long ago!

In terms of the OP, if your referees have changed I think it’s perfectly legitimate for the FEO to ask why. The FEO will meet you for how long? 1 hour every 5 years? They need to make an assessment of your suitability so need to gather all the evidence they can.

 

[Stalker62]

In terms of the OP, if your referees have changed I think it’s perfectly legitimate for the FEO to ask why. The FEO will meet you for how long? 1 hour every 5 years? They need to make an assessment of your suitability so need to gather all the evidence they can.

How dare you bring your real world experience into this argument!

I much prefer the paranoid, sci-fi, Armageddon view of the world, espoused by those unhinged, radical, bedwetters; that have occasional access to a keyboard, whilst dressed in their pyjamas and checking their ankle tag is working...

 

[ColinJ]

I much prefer the paranoid, sci-fi, Armageddon view of the world, espoused by those unhinged, radical, bedwetters; that have occasional access to a keyboard, whilst dressed in their pyjamas and checking their ankle tag is working...

Do these individuals never do any actual shooting? And perhaps still live with their mum?

 

[Dickie]

And what’s wrong with living with your mum? Most under 30 can’t afford not to nowadays.

 

[Pedro]

It's surprising how many people think the police are restricted in what they can do when making enquiries into whatever, be it a crime, road traffic offence, firearms licencing or anything else. Here's some I've come across:

1. "You can't talk to my little Johnny on the street because I wasn't there". Poppycock! Although interviewing him is different.
2. "You can't arrest my little billy because he's under age." Tosh. If your kid does naughty things, he can get arrested like anyone else. Just because he won't always be arrested doesn't mean he can't be.
3. "You can't enter my house without a warrant". Well there are circumstances where the police actually can lawfully y'know.
4. "I did nothing wrong, so you can't speak to me." Um, freedom of speech isn't chopped off when you become a cop.
5. "There's two referees for a firearm certificate so that means the cops or FEOs can't speak to anyone else about it". Yeah, righto. They might or might not. Might depend on how bolshy you are.
6. "Cops are there when I have a night out to keep me safe and should therefore give me a lift home". Partly right.
7. "You can't arrest me because you haven't got your hat/helmet on." Actually based on fact because there's some drink driving legislation that required an officer to be in uniform. But that won't get you off a drink drive charge these days.
And detectives seem to manage okay with most arrests they make. Wearing a trilby went out of fashion a while ago.
8. "I have never told a lie. Anything I say is the whole truth. How dare you question it." I think you'll find that cops are some of the most cynical members of society. And they get lied to so regularly to the extent that they can often tell. And being loud and pointedly continuing saying you are telling the truth just might have the opposite effect.

Of course there are checks and restrictions on some police enquiries. Without going into it too deeply, they include stuff like bugging and phone type stuff. That means they can only do it with the required permissions. But don't depend on it not happening if you are, for example a pusher (man). One modern way of ensuring you are pinched for something is to boast about it on Facebook (other platforms are available). Dumb offenders even today still do that thinking the cops won't look there.

 

[Hambone]

Not sure what to think about this. I suppose t makes sense for the firearms team to track back but when waiting lists are so long then why go beyond the guidance? What if a falling out has occurred between an renewal and a previous referee 5, 10, 15 years ago?

 

[User00056]

they can make what enquiries they deem appropriate.

Again, I disagree. The application process details the process proforma and requirements that need to be met. Anything else is outwith the remit of the FEO unless additional information is deemed necessary and appropriate (doctors report, for example) Approaching previous referees to enquire as to why they've not been approached again is invasive, unnecessary, outwith the application requirements, and (as was mentioned earlier by @Apthorpe ) quite possibly infringes data protection laws. Quite simply, it is not required.

 

[gixer1]

Dig long enough and you’ll find someone with an axe to grind with most people….its nonsense to keep fishing for references from previous applications and quite frankly awkward and rude, people fall in and out - you don’t need some over enthusiastic FEO opening up old wounds in some cases, it’s not illegal to have disagreements with previous associates and friends - one good example is already on here with previous employers.

How far back are police looked into before being allowed on the force? Do they check if they pulled the legs off insects as a child?

 

[Stalker62]

I suppose t makes sense for the firearms team to track back but when waiting lists are so long then why go beyond the guidance?

Go beyond what guidance?

There is no guidance. They can conduct any enquiries they deem appropriate. To suggest they do otherwise in order to reduce waiting lists, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of their role.

 

[Stalker62]

Anything else is outwith the remit of the FEO unless additional information is deemed necessary and appropriate...

You are arguing against, and then explaining why it is necessary in your own argument against.

Believe what you like. Whilst you are doing that, the FEOs up and down the country will continue to conduct those checks they deem necessarily.

 

[Mike L]

Surely it’s sensible to check why the referees have been changed?, hardly an infringement or overstepping any mark, just common sense!

 

[Dave_45]

Surely you can see why?

I know it’s a bit invasive for a law abiding citizen to have their integrity called into question.
But the reason for doing so is absolutely sound.

I changed a referee as he moved to France and I don’t see him as regular as before.
Not sure if the police called him or not but I passed on all his new relevant contact info so they could,it was up to them.

 

[DVS1]

From the viewpoint of the Firearms Licencing Teams look at the options...

1 - offend the sensibilities of the FAC holder
2 - be held accountable for a major firearms incident for not using due diligence

I pick option 1 everyday

 

[Greenmist]

I

It's surprising how many people think the police are restricted in what they can do when making enquiries into whatever, be it a crime, road traffic offence, firearms licencing or anything else. Here's some I've come across:

1. "You can't talk to my little Johnny on the street because I wasn't there". Poppycock! Although interviewing him is different.
2. "You can't arrest my little billy because he's under age." Tosh. If your kid does naughty things, he can get arrested like anyone else. Just because he won't always be arrested doesn't mean he can't be.
3. "You can't enter my house without a warrant". Well there are circumstances where the police actually can lawfully y'know.
4. "I did nothing wrong, so you can't speak to me." Um, freedom of speech isn't chopped off when you become a cop.
5. "There's two referees for a firearm certificate so that means the cops or FEOs can't speak to anyone else about it". Yeah, righto. They might or might not. Might depend on how bolshy you are.
6. "Cops are there when I have a night out to keep me safe and should therefore give me a lift home". Partly right.
7. "You can't arrest me because you haven't got your hat/helmet on." Actually based on fact because there's some drink driving legislation that required an officer to be in uniform. But that won't get you off a drink drive charge these days.
And detectives seem to manage okay with most arrests they make. Wearing a trilby went out of fashion a while ago.
8. "I have never told a lie. Anything I say is the whole truth. How dare you question it." I think you'll find that cops are some of the most cynical members of society. And they get lied to so regularly to the extent that they can often tell. And being loud and pointedly continuing saying you are telling the truth just might have the opposite effect.

Of course there are checks and restrictions on some police enquiries. Without going into it too deeply, they include stuff like bugging and phone type stuff. That means they can only do it with the required permissions. But don't depend on it not happening if you are, for example a pusher (man). One modern way of ensuring you are pinched for something is to boast about it on Facebook (other platforms are available). Dumb offenders even today still do that thinking the cops won't look there.

Interested in the circumstances for point 3.