The leisure stalkers , why , how , where do we fit in ?

[Jh1986]

Taking away trained hunter status from DSC1, may actually be a problem here.

At least, it should be offered as an addition to the DSC1 course to be taken as part of it. There simply aren't enough Large Game courses being run in the south.

The reason this is an issue is that it effectively slows the "recreational" stalker down. I only have a small 50 acre permission, but it's so local that I could go and shoot deer pretty damn regularly. At the moment though, I have to process, cook, and eat everything I shoot. Once I've got trained hunter, I could happily shoot 1-2 times a week. As it stands, it'll be 1-2 a month.

 

[Pete6.5]

Few being the key word here. Far to few to make a difference, especially in southern England.

The few I know account for a couple of thousand deer a year that's alot of amateur stalkers

 

[bottletopbill]

More part time stalkers would love the chance to cull a lot more deer.

 

[Cris]

More part time stalkers would love the chance to cull a lot more deer.

Exactly. More organisation would mean more opportunities and more security for the sport, industry. More resilience to regulation and legislation. We need a complete re think of what we know and how we do things or it will be taken out of our hands.

 

[Tim.243]

More part time stalkers would love the chance to cull a lot more deer.

If you came with me tomorrow Bill have you got chiller room for a 50kg Fallow ?

 

[Heym SR20]

Lots of farms in Kent have banned all shooting at this present time due to some one shooting a fellow shooter at night using thermal.
The shooter controlled a lot of farms I shot a couple of fields for a couple of years.
Glad I gave up that place .
The other shooter was his mate and was lucky and still alive .
If all the stories i have heard are true we are all going to have a hard time in Kent .

Why hasn’t this shooting far more widely publicised. I have voiced concerns over use of thermals and exactly this sort of accident happening, but been shouted down.

Thermals do not always an adequate image to clearly determine the target and whats behind it etc.

And what has night shooting got to do with deer management. It’s illegal unless there has been a licence issued for a particular place and purpose.

 

[SussexSteve]

Lots of farms in Kent have banned all shooting at this present time due to some one shooting a fellow shooter at night using thermal.
The shooter controlled a lot of farms I shot a couple of fields for a couple of years.
Glad I gave up that place .
The other shooter was his mate and was lucky and still alive .
If all the stories i have heard are true we are all going to have a hard time in Kent .

That’s not good

 

[Dickie]

Any perm should be visited at least once a week I have 400 acres for over ten years no deer couple of foxes rabbits are making a come back.
But at least it is a perm.

400 acres with no deer yet we are being told that they are everywhere in plague proportions, clearly not.

 

[Mr. Gain]

I have voiced concerns over use of thermals and exactly this sort of accident happening, but been shouted down.

Thermals do not always an adequate image to clearly determine the target and whats behind it etc.

And what has night shooting got to do with deer management. It’s illegal unless there has been a licence issued for a particular place and purpose.

Points 2 and 3 I can't argue with, but I don't see a need to take special issue with thermal.
As I see it, whatever kind of aiming device is used - shooting at something you haven't properly identified is a recipe for grief and hence breaks a fundamental shooting safety rule.
Thus, shooting at a brown blob in a bush seen though a day scope or a white blob in a bush seen through a thermal scope is equally reckless: the problem isn't the viewing device, it's the viewer.
Sometimes good glass will give you the crucial information needed to identify your target, but sometimes it comes from thermal. Indeed, consulting different spectra in combination has real benefits. But, again, it's absolutely not how you identify the target that matters, but that you do identify it, beyond doubt, and before your finger goes near the safety, let alone the trigger.
I hope that doesn't feel like being shouted down, I just feel that the only safety advice that counts is to follow the cardinal rules. Do that and no harm will be done, whatever kit you're using.

 

[Freeforester]

Why hasn’t this shooting far more widely publicised. I have voiced concerns over use of thermals and exactly this sort of accident happening, but been shouted down.

Thermals do not always an adequate image to clearly determine the target and whats behind it etc.

And what has night shooting got to do with deer management. It’s illegal unless there has been a licence issued for a particular place and purpose.

Might be helpful to determine whether the chap helping the police with their enquiries following the shooting of his mate was/is regarded/categorised as being a(n un-)'professional' or a 'leisure'/amateur/keen hobbyist, etc, along with the 'why, how and where', to understand 'where he fitted in', etc. Sounds like he would fail his basic deer identification in DSC 1, let alone basic safety training.


As for categorisation - regional variations apply. Shooting over 120 every winter, I considered myself part-time or semi-professional, as much of my time was spent butchering those carcases for market thereafter, i.e. I wasn't and don't consider myself a professional as such, just 'playing' at it really. Pros or contractors could be shooting that number in a good week, more than readily in a month, never mind per season.

 

[bottletopbill]

This stalker controlled thousands of acres sorry not sure if he was full time or not.
If any of you have been to JJ'S all the land around that area was under his control.

Tim I do not have a chiller at this present time but any deer I have shot have gone into the food chain with my guide so none is wasted.
Plus i would make arrangements for the disposal of any carcass shot
Tall fridges available for deer

 

[Heym SR20]

Points 2 and 3 I can't argue with, but I don't see a need to take special issue with thermal.
As I see it, whatever kind of aiming device is used - shooting at something you haven't properly identified is a recipe for grief and hence breaks a fundamental shooting safety rule.
Thus, shooting at a brown blob in a bush seen though a day scope or a white blob in a bush seen through a thermal scope is equally reckless: the problem isn't the viewing device, it's the viewer.
Sometimes good glass will give you the crucial information needed to identify your target, but sometimes it comes from thermal. Indeed, consulting different spectra in combination has real benefits. But, again, it's absolutely not how you identify the target that matters, but that you do identify it, beyond doubt, and before your finger goes near the safety, let alone the trigger.
I hope that doesn't feel like being shouted down, I just feel that the only safety advice that counts is to follow the cardinal rules. Do that and no harm will be done, whatever kit you're using.

Don’t disagree with any of what you say. You have to be absolutely certain of your target. I think we all have taken shots, which on reflection where questionable. And it doesn’t matter whether you are are a professional or an amateur stalker same still applies. Add long hours in the cold and wet, moving heavy and awkward objects, machinery, especially with sharp or pointy bits and add in fatigue and you have all the ingredients for fatal or life changing accidents

 

[bottletopbill]

If the story I was told is true then they were dangerous.
This is word of mouth by other's and as we all know bits get added to the story. At least three serious issues were told to me
But if they are true then it is worrying for all.

 

[Jh1986]

This stalker controlled thousands of acres sorry not sure if he was full time or not.
If any of you have been to JJ'S all the land around that area was under his control.

Tim I do not have a chiller at this present time but any deer I have shot have gone into the food chain with my guide so none is wasted.
Plus i would make arrangements for the disposal of any carcass shot
Tall fridges available for deer

Get yourself on Facebook marketplace and eBay. Plenty of tall fridges going for £50 odd. I was like you, having to refuse to take deer home as I didn't have the setup. That small outlay now means I can at least know I'm good to go and have a bit of time to actually butcher.

Now I just have to rein myself in when I'm presented with a 2nd shot.

 

[Tim.243]

This stalker controlled thousands of acres sorry not sure if he was full time or not.
If any of you have been to JJ'S all the land around that area was under his control.

Tim I do not have a chiller at this present time but any deer I have shot have gone into the food chain with my guide so none is wasted.
Plus i would make arrangements for the disposal of any carcass shot
Tall fridges available for deer

That is good Bill, sure there will be something for you to collect from here come the Nov season with the does coming in.
Hope you are up to it!!

Tim.243

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Any perm should be visited at least once a week I have 400 acres for over ten years no deer couple of foxes rabbits are making a come back.
But at least it is a perm.

Near Deal perhaps?

 

[bottletopbill]

Jh1986 yes will be looking very soon. Thanks
Tim.243 yes i am up for it
Bavarianbrit used to drive to Deal rifle club every Tuesday night 141 miles round trip to shoot 50r 22lr no trouble.
The club was opposite the theater up the alley. great bunch of guy's

 

[nun_hunter]

Cris your comments show we are all working to lower the numbers.
Regardless of part time or pro stalker.
So do we need to extend the seasons or land owners who offer safe haven be made to control there number's

Going after landowners who are anti shooting is not going to have much of a difference. The bigger issue are all the landowners who are ambivalent or have never been asked if their deer need thinning out, they make up more ground than those opposed to shooting. Or the landowners who want deer reducing but only have one stalker who isn't getting enough deer on the deck. If recreational stalkers went for small but productive permissions then there would be more space for everyone.

Too many recreational stalkers want huges acreages to wander around rather than somewhere that is easy to shoot on.

 

[Apthorpe]

Going after landowners who are anti shooting is not going to have much of a difference. The bigger issue are all the landowners who are ambivalent or have never been asked if their deer need thinning out, they make up more ground than those opposed to shooting. Or the landowners who want deer reducing but only have one stalker who isn't getting enough deer on the deck. If recreational stalkers went for small but productive permissions then there would be more space for everyone.

Too many recreational stalkers want huges acreages to wander around rather than somewhere that is easy to shoot on.

One might also mention that many commercial stalkers hoard huge acreages which far exceed their capacity to effectively control deer.

Another issue is that there are quite large areas where a safe shot is not available because of terrain, access, roads and so on. If one effectively wants to control deer, then I think you also need to be open to driven deer and shooting them on the move, including with shotguns. The problems for controlling deer more heavily are not just about access to land and personal effort. They also include the barriers this country creates to suitable gun ownership, ranges to practise, massive overpopulation, excessive public access to land, a culture which rather oddly deplores shooting a moving animal, and an obsession with welfare to a much higher level than human welfare.

 

[bottletopbill]

Just a thought how many stalkers have folks walking across there land footpaths dog walkers surely this must affect numbers over a year.
Plus land no one can go on.
Lets not argue among our selves pro or occasional stalker .