why is it hard too get out stalking or get into a stalking syndicate

[Rasputin]

Boils down purely to cash. If you have money you can pay for stalks, courses attend event and even a syndicate to meet people networking. Having surplus cash also gives you time to waste knocking on peoples doors or doing pest control etc.

The field behind my house at times is covered in pigeons and crows. Asked the farmer as I see him a lot walking the dogs politely said sorry X shoots the pigeons. In three years I can count on one hand the number of times the old guy goes and shoots it and I know he probably has at least 500/1000 acres to shoot over. A permission hoarding story as old as time.

I’m very fortunate to be in a good syndicate at a cost that might make most members eyes water but for me I’d rather pay it and get time back in my day to go to work rather than waste knocking on doors.

What I find weird is that everything can be commoditised if someone had a rat/rabbit problem and said pay me £50 for a night mooching about some out buildings on the farm I’d happily pay up as I would for most sporting opportunities. Better than spending money on the pub imo.

The flip side is there are a lot of people who have been burned paying for things which have been a bust and that’s also an issue for those getting into it.

 

[moonstone gsp]

I don’t think it is hard to get into a syndicate. It’s just a matter of how much you want to pay and do you meet criteria with qualification etc. if you are after ‘free’ stalking them that’s different and a totally different route. Simple to me pay or earn it!

 

[JTO]

I heard someone say once:- "It's virtually impossible to get any shooting without treading on someone's toes".

 

[nun_hunter]

Something to consider about "starting at the bottom and working up" is how long applications and variations take in the UK now compared to even just a few years ago plus coupled with the cost of living in general before you start on the cost of rifles, scopes and ammo.

I bet most the people saying start with ratting or rabbits are also the same people suggesting buying Swarovski scopes and binos and not cheap secondhand rifles and Vortex optics because that's the stage their at in their lives with their finances and experience.

Someone may want to do deer stalking and feed their family and doesn't have the money to buy multiple rifles and upgrade them over the years all while waiting for the slow FLDs to authorise and keep up.

I'm not saying people should start at the top of at the bottom but people already at the top shouldn't be looking down at those wanting to start and treating them like slaves to earn the opportunity to tag along on a stalk.

I've taken out quite a few people, some just wanted to come along and see and others were looking for experience and the opportunity to shoot a deer and have some meat. Most recently a friend got his first grant with a 22lr and 308 and has already shot his first deer. I've spent many hours helping him, giving him some bits of kit I don't use and taking him out on the farm I have permission on. He shot a deer before he shot a rabbit or pheasant or anything and hasn't made him a spoilt whining "gen whatever" contrary to what half the users of this site think.

 

[nun_hunter]

Trouble is these days, everyone wants everything handed on a plate at times.

I do understand this sentiment but I think it is also a generational thing and is often misinterpreted between generations.

During my dad's work life it was common for him to talk about people who got a job as an apprentice and 20 years later they were running the factory with zero formal qualifications just their "get up and go" grafting attitude. This may still be the case in some very small niche areas of business but for the majority, 'loyalty' is rewarded with lower pay and promotion compared with those who swap jobs and companies every couple of years.

How that translates to deer stalking is people are willing to shoot rats and rabbits or help out with highest maintenance or dragging and gralloching if it is a benefit to their overall learning and means they get rewarded with stalking etc. Too often there is no clear 'apprenticeship' or mentoring set out between an established stalker and a newcomer and the relationship sours because they arent clear what is happening. The younger person wants to learn and also get the stalking their ultimately after while often the established stalker is just looking for someone to prove themselves and never delivers on the learning otlr stalking.

This isn't always the case but as someone sitting between the Boomer generation and whatever the sub 30 year olds are called I can see both sides.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

I heard someone say once:- "It's virtually impossible to get any shooting without treading on someone's toes".

That to a certain degree is true, but of their not pulling their weight and get kicked off that’s their look out!

I know someone very well, who’s just gained 350 acres because the existing stalker had t bothered to turn up and get on with it.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Something to consider about "starting at the bottom and working up" is how long applications and variations take in the UK now compared to even just a few years ago plus coupled with the cost of living in general before you start on the cost of rifles, scopes and ammo.

I bet most the people saying start with ratting or rabbits are also the same people suggesting buying Swarovski scopes and binos and not cheap secondhand rifles and Vortex optics because that's the stage their at in their lives with their finances and experience.

To this day, the only bit of kit I wouldn’t want to replace is my Leica binoculars, thermal I can live without.

Go back 14 years and I was shooting a ruger m77 that cost £270 with a second hand Hungarian s/b and i was killing over 150-200 deer a year!

Even now i still shoot a ruger with a 20 year old meopta scope.

Don’t need expensive kit to crack on!

The had someone turn up to one of my cull days and he was a complete tit, all the gear, pulsar thermal, swaro bins, blaser and a £350 odd knife, he was probably humping £8k worth of kit and had shot not even 10 deer, he shot a cwd and asked me if I could gralloch it as he didn’t want to dirty his new expensive knife.

Oh how I laughed

 

[Tim.243]

I heard someone say once:- "It's virtually impossible to get any shooting without treading on someone's toes".

I picked up some good Fallow ground as the chap shoots 1 a year, his high seat faces a foot path! shot 7 on there since mid Feb being mobile and away from the foot paths.
The owner asked me to have a look so I did, I asked him what he wanted "shoot them please as this is getting stupid"
He is not the first to say "shoot them please"

I remember some chaps went early the next morning after the combine had cut the rape...Shot 60 all day!
I took the farmers son when I thought it was right shot 340 no toes were harmed on that field lol

 

[JTO]

I picked up some good Fallow ground as the chap shoots 1 a year, his high seat faces a foot path! shot 7 on there since mid Feb being mobile and away from the foot paths.
The owner asked me to have a look so I did, I asked him what he wanted "shoot them please as this is getting stupid"
He is not the first to say "shoot them please"

I remember some chaps went early the next morning after the combine had cut the rape...Shot 60 all day!
I took the farmers son when I thought it was right shot 340 no toes were harmed on that field lol

The keeper that I quoted was not talking about deer, he had no interest in deer. He left that to the employed stalker/park manager.

 

[Tim.243]

The keeper that I quoted was not talking about deer, he had no interest in deer. He left that to the employed stalker/park manager.

Often hard to pick out which way these threads go...deer to foxes then pigeons lol

 

[pete evans]

I heard someone say once:- "It's virtually impossible to get any shooting without treading on someone's toes".

Probably more accurate to say putting someone’s nose out of joint. Quite a few think they have exclusive permission and turn up when they feel like it. If you were to be offered some shooting opportunity on the basis that someone else isn’t hitting the mark then I think this is perfectly reasonable. I’ve gained and lost opportunities on a variety of reasons but I treat all “free” stalking as a privilege rather than a right and I think that is noticed and appreciated by landowners and helps develop a good relationship.

 

[Donkey Basher]

Put yourself in the place of the landowner.

Some you don’t know from Adam turns up at your door & tells you he can manage your deer because he’s got a licence & done his dsc1.

Would you give him a set of gate keys & say crack on?! I certainly wouldn’t.

Best way is to get known by people who already move in the right circles. Start off asking if anyone needs a beater during the shooting season, turn up regularly & prove you’re reliable. Talk to the other beaters over lunch breaks & listen to what they’re saying - don’t spout on about how good a shot you are, how you passed your DSC1 with 100% & single hole group, etc. End of season beaters shoot show that you’re safe. Once you know the keeper then ask about who does the staking & does he think they’d let you come out to see what it’s about & help out with dragging etc. Once your foot is in the door ask if you can go out in the doe cull - if you stick the cold dark winter mornings then odds are you’ll be asked to join the team!

If you go door knocking then expect to get told to “get off moi laand!” Farmers, like must of us, don’t like being told what to do & saying you’ll control their deer is tantamount to saying they’re not doing it properly & you can do better - it’ll get you nowhere.

 

[nun_hunter]

To this day, the only bit of kit I wouldn’t want to replace is my Leica binoculars, thermal I can live without.

Go back 14 years and I was shooting a ruger m77 that cost £270 with a second hand Hungarian s/b and i was killing over 150-200 deer a year!

Even now i still shoot a ruger with a 20 year old meopta scope.

Don’t need expensive kit to crack on!

The had someone turn up to one of my cull days and he was a complete tit, all the gear, pulsar thermal, swaro bins, blaser and a £350 odd knife, he was probably humping £8k worth of kit and had shot not even 10 deer, he shot a cwd and asked me if I could gralloch it as he didn’t want to dirty his new expensive knife.

Oh how I laughed

There will always be outliers in any set of data, the sensible amongst us know to ignore the extremes and form opinions on the majority.

 

[jarlo]

I had started writing a thread like this and then

One of the items missing now is a lack of people wanting to show someone the ropes and guide an individual to eventually pick up some shooting irrespective of what discipline whether it’s ferreting, wildfowling, pigeon shooting or deer stalking.
Dinosaurs way ( this is me) to get shooting is by trust and involvement in any sporting pastime which in time does lead to shooting being available
Now as things move on, money and attitude has greatly changed that old way and people just pay up to shoot without doing the dinosaurs way of earning it

Like wise there is now a lot of fear of losing your permission on some land once you’ve found it and probably paid for it, so there goes any chance of a guest invite or helping out, there are still people who offer that but it is now a very low number compared to a few years back, stalkers in some quarters are very guarded and keep themselves to themselves which is fine, their choice - but when you ask them why, most will tell you a tale of lost shooting due to blah blah it -it a cautionary damper on things

Then there’s the old what tickets you got, experience, insurance etc etc, that on its own cuts out a huge amount of stalkers getting permission, purely due to landowners or lease holders conforming to H&S, insurance requirements or here say on what’s required in the hurried up involvement stalking has taken on the past few years

Some of it due to landowners trying to eek a profit out of woodland etc which is ok they didn’t buy it to make a loss, just over the past 5 years stalking has changed so much, if you grown up with changes you are fine with it, try and get into the permission bit now is not without difficulty without some paperwork

My advice would be to keep asking, knocking on doors, get involved, volunteer talk to people offer up as a spare pair of hands gradually get some paperwork behind you and keep looking for someone to take you under their wing

The dinosaur approach is a lot slower but you learn as you go and a door will open for you, don’t give up, steady eddy is the best way,

Good luck

I think this is the most succinct reply here and I came across it while about to ask similar questions as the original poster. One thing I'm wondering about is what, if anything, organisations like BASC can do in order to help? Perhaps legislation needs to be looked at, perhaps there are incentives that could be created in order to stimulate landowners and their interests? I'm not extremely hopeful but interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[Overlay]

Hi Jarlo
Many ways to get permissions to shoot over ground, by way of a friend, knocking on doors, building on trust and being helpful, beating, picking up the entry list is long but will bear fruit providing you go the time honoured way, its still out there, but as previously a lot of things have changed and good or bad thats the way it is.

I never thought you would ever see me out deerstalking with a thermal and now its like natural, in as much permissions have also changed on how you can get a syndicate place, one of the things that you see are on syndicate applications or adverts must have DSC1 as a minimum ??? , everyone needs training whoever they are or experienced having DSC1 is part of ongoing training and learn learn learn.

BUT one thing you rarely or never or see is a syndicate vacancy position available on that will give a new stalker a training, year at half the price of the syndicate cost, whereupon you spend a whole season out with a experienced stalker, you could learn so much, a shed load in one season believe you me, from start to finish invaluable , no tests, no willy waving just guidance and help would put a newbie in good stead, combine that with DSC1 and firearms safety training puts you in a good place in one season, you've joined in and feel like you achieved something and ready to and opened up up into networking getting to know people who can help you on your way, for me that now is the one thing that would produce competent stalkers, and a real enjoyment into the sport, I know there of a couple of places that help and do this but 1 of them is 100% money linked the other one a broken concept

IMHO I believe we are missing the one thing that would greatly benefit especially new stalkers and syndicate is to have this available it would be very beneficial to all.

Nowadays as like all things money would be the biggest objectives so don’t hold your breath

 

[jarlo]

Hi Jarlo
Many ways to get permissions to shoot over ground, by way of a friend, knocking on doors, building on trust and being helpful, beating, picking up the entry list is long but will bear fruit providing you go the time honoured way, its still out there, but as previously a lot of things have changed and good or bad thats the way it is.

I never thought you would ever see me out deerstalking with a thermal and now its like natural, in as much permissions have also changed on how you can get a syndicate place, one of the things that you see are on syndicate applications or adverts must have DSC1 as a minimum ??? , everyone needs training whoever they are or experienced having DSC1 is part of ongoing training and learn learn learn.

BUT one thing you rarely or never or see is a syndicate vacancy position available on that will give a new stalker a training, year at half the price of the syndicate cost, whereupon you spend a whole season out with a experienced stalker, you could learn so much, a shed load in one season believe you me, from start to finish invaluable , no tests, no willy waving just guidance and help would put a newbie in good stead, combine that with DSC1 and firearms safety training puts you in a good place in one season, you've joined in and feel like you achieved something and ready to and opened up up into networking getting to know people who can help you on your way, for me that now is the one thing that would produce competent stalkers, and a real enjoyment into the sport, I know there of a couple of places that help and do this but 1 of them is 100% money linked the other one a broken concept

IMHO I believe we are missing the one thing that would greatly benefit especially new stalkers and syndicate is to have this available it would be very beneficial to all.

Nowadays as like all things money would be the biggest objectives so don’t hold your breath

Thanks for you reply! I'll start saving...

 

[Deermanagement]

It may have been mentioned but unless you get a recommendation and therefore already have experience, some landowners will be very wary of someone they do not know and are unsure of whether they are safe enough to be in charge of a high velocity rifle

 

[jarlo]

It may have been mentioned but unless you get a recommendation and therefore already have experience, some landowners will be very wary of someone they do not know and are unsure of whether they are safe enough to be in charge of a high velocity rifle

Which arguably is understandable, but if you have a DSC1 or (as in my case) an NRA Bisley membership I wonder what else you need to do in order to prove your worth...it feels like a catch 22 situation to me sometimes

 

[Utectok]

My advice is do your DSC 1and 2 and get a first aid qualification. You’ll learn a lot make connections and it’s much easier to find syndicates if people know you’re serious. I won’t take anyone on who doesn’t have the above as a minimum and snh fit and comp too preferably

 

[jcampbellsmith]

I think that we all have a responsibility to encourage the next generation into our sport. I see too few folk under 40 getting involved. We each need to help folk get started and to improve their skills once they have DSC1 and DSC2. Not every one will make the grade, but we need to encourage folk at whatever level they are at.
Regards
JCS