Track laying question

[K9 Contact]

Hi,

I'm training my personal dog in deer detection and wanted to ask people with particular experience in this about laying a training track/trail.

The idea so far is take a scrap of deer pelt, soak it with a little liquid scent (from a bottle), then drag it alomg the ground.

For human scent distinction I'll try lay the trail far from me (no doubt taking inspiration from a fishing rod), and otherwise cover the area in a cone of my scent to generalise it as being irrelevant.

Is this similar to what others are doing? Is there an obvious thing I haven't thought of?

Thanks for any help!

 

[VSS]

No particular experience myself, but when I've provided cleaves for other stalkers to use for scent training, they've often asked for blood from the same animal. That's important, apparently. And it makes sense when you think about it.
Not sure how scent from a bottle would work, as it wouldn't match the pelt you're using?

 

[K9 Contact]

No particular experience myself, but when I've provided cleaves for other stalkers to use for scent training, they've often asked for blood from the same animal. That's important, apparently. And it makes sense when you think about it.
Not sure how scent from a bottle would work, as it wouldn't match the pelt you're using?

Yeah so I've been curious about exactly that. If its sufficient to track the scent of "a deer" rather than "a male Fallow deer".

The scents in a bottle allow you to spray it on surfaces/lures. And they presumably don't change over time. As in, I imagine if we bottled up some actual deer scent, that it would degrade and 'rot' over time.

Blood is the go to scent, but surely that's only good for finding a wounded deer. What about pointing or alerting to the presence of deer?

 

[VSS]

With the herding species, its necessary to be able to track a specific animal from amongst the scent of the whole herd.
That's about the limit of my understanding and knowledge on the subject, so over to the experts now...

 

[fallowfellow]

Hello,

I doubt you will need to add any scent. I haven’t found it necessary. You can freeze the skin after a session and keep reusing so the scent won’t degrade too much. Scent shoes, hooves and blood good next step.

 

[fallowfellow]

experts still awaited

 

[K9 Contact]

With the herding species, its necessary to be able to track a specific animal from amongst the scent of the whole herd.
That's about the limit of my understanding and knowledge on the subject, so over to the experts now...

That's a really good point I'd not thought of - thank you

 

[K9 Contact]

Hello,

I doubt you will need to add any scent. I haven’t found it necessary. You can freeze the skin after a session and keep reusing so the scent won’t degrade too much. Scent shoes, hooves and blood good next step.

I'd not considered freezing it - thank you.

Do you find scent shoes make a difference? Just because the scent of the track layer would be mixed in.

 

[K9 Contact]

experts still awaited

Well i mean feel free to weigh in

 

[LarryLightFoot]

I’m training my boy the UKDTR way on three hour old cold trails for starters .
Using tracking shoes with hooves and blood from the same Deer mixing it up with hedgerow edge of fields, ditches and Woodland .
Plenty of encouragement and reading him whilst he’s on it, most importantly is to have a reward 1 at the end of the trail but also keep a reward on you so if it goes south and you end the trail before the predetermined end you still reward them for there efforts so your building the idea that this is great .
Have to say watching my boy trail and getting on it is very rewarding .

 

[Paul 600]

I'd not considered freezing it - thank you.

Do you find scent shoes make a difference? Just because the scent of the track layer would be mixed in.

The tracking training you are doing is conditioning. It learns the dog when you have the tracking gear on it’s time to work. Your scent mixed in is irrelevant. Get someone else to lay the track if you like. The dog learns to detect the chemical change in the vegetation that you have crushed as you walk. The association with the shoe and cleave is all that is needed. No need for blood or other added scents.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[trucraft]

My thoughts and personal approach.
Condition the dog to deer from day one.
Play with them from very young with a hoof or skin. But then remove it. I don’t just leave them laying about.
If walking on lead and I see a deer I walk them into the wind and praise them as soon as they see , smell or indicate (from any age)
This is also conditioning them that deer are good and they will soon learn to indicate.

Tracking I start young. But not to often maybe once a wk max and often less.
I start on short grass or woodland ride with sent shoes and continued drops of blood for 50m max and 1 to 2 hrs old.
Easy and almost straight line.
Never in own garden.
I keep a bit of meat or fresh hide in my pocket to reward them as soon as they reach the end.
I indicate the start with a word with simple quiet encouragement the rest of the way while they are on the right path.
I don’t over do this. I want them to know they are doing good but not distract them.
When they go off track I just stand still and shut up until they find the track again. Then good girl!
I water down the blood 50/50 and try to use the same animals hoofs. Freeze in bags and reuse hoofs only twice.
As the dog improves I use less blood and add the difficulty.

I don’t drag meat or fresh hide apart from perhaps the dogs first ever track.
Tracking a freshly shot deer is easy for a dog.
We are teaching them that this is the job we want of them. As well as over time increasing the age of the track and difficulty so when the the day comes that you have a 24 hour old track that’s through deer infested countryside they have the skill and patience to stick at it and deliver.

 

[th32]

I think you can find some interesting info in the attached file

 

[K9 Contact]

I’m training my boy the UKDTR way on three hour old cold trails for starters .
Using tracking shoes with hooves and blood from the same Deer mixing it up with hedgerow edge of fields, ditches and Woodland .
Plenty of encouragement and reading him whilst he’s on it, most importantly is to have a reward 1 at the end of the trail but also keep a reward on you so if it goes south and you end the trail before the predetermined end you still reward them for there efforts so your building the idea that this is great .
Have to say watching my boy trail and getting on it is very rewarding .

This is valuable information! Is there somewhere I can learn more about thr UKDTR approach?

 

[K9 Contact]

My thoughts and personal approach.
Condition the dog to deer from day one.
Play with them from very young with a hoof or skin. But then remove it. I don’t just leave them laying about.
If walking on lead and I see a deer I walk them into the wind and praise them as soon as they see , smell or indicate (from any age)
This is also conditioning them that deer are good and they will soon learn to indicate.

Tracking I start young. But not to often maybe once a wk max and often less.
I start on short grass or woodland ride with sent shoes and continued drops of blood for 50m max and 1 to 2 hrs old.
Easy and almost straight line.
Never in own garden.
I keep a bit of meat or fresh hide in my pocket to reward them as soon as they reach the end.
I indicate the start with a word with simple quiet encouragement the rest of the way while they are on the right path.
I don’t over do this. I want them to know they are doing good but not distract them.
When they go off track I just stand still and shut up until they find the track again. Then good girl!
I water down the blood 50/50 and try to use the same animals hoofs. Freeze in bags and reuse hoofs only twice.
As the dog improves I use less blood and add the difficulty.

I don’t drag meat or fresh hide apart from perhaps the dogs first ever track.
Tracking a freshly shot deer is easy for a dog.
We are teaching them that this is the job we want of them. As well as over time increasing the age of the track and difficulty so when the the day comes that you have a 24 hour old track that’s through deer infested countryside they have the skill and patience to stick at it and deliver.

A lot of value in here! So that's a few people start with tracks a few hours old, why aren't we starting with a fresh track and building up the delay.

And it seems scent shoes are preferable over a drag?

I guess with using blood I'd worry the dog would build a scent picture overly focused on the blood, not the smell of deer?

 

[K9 Contact]

I think you can find some interesting info in the attached file

Thank you, I'll read it this week

 

[LarryLightFoot]

This is valuable information! Is there somewhere I can learn more about thr UKDTR approach?

Yes but you have to think about the commitment they require before you approach them .
They are the top drawer and provide a free service but only accept
1 people and dogs committed to putting the training in
2 Handlers and dogs that pass their 3, 6 & 20 hour cold trail tests .
I’ve met Tony & Nobby truly top gents, they assess and say whether you should continue with them or not .
My thing is I like the idea of giving something back to the community but at the same time watching my boy doing what he loves doing so it’s a win win ( if we both make the grade ) for everyone .
My boy is dual purpose he stalks with me but also tracks he’s only young at just over two years but they learn so much being with you all the time . He knows to calm it whilst on high seats or when I put the rifle on the sticks and peg one, tbf when he hers the the crack go off he does get excited as he knows the game is on…

 

[trucraft]

A lot of value in here! So that's a few people start with tracks a few hours old, why aren't we starting with a fresh track and building up the delay.

And it seems scent shoes are preferable over a drag?

I guess with using blood I'd worry the dog would build a scent picture overly focused on the blood, not the smell of deer?

The first track I give a pup may be a fresh drag of a hoof or fresh bit of hide.
Thats simply to gage their interest in following a scent. I haven’t seen a dog that hasn’t taken to it straight away.
So then the next will be with blood and scent shoes and layed a bit older. Again not usually an issue for most dogs.
I don’t continue to drag things because I feel a shoe with cleaves is more natural.
Both my dogs struggled a bit if I didn’t use blood in the early stages.
I then reduced the amount used as the dog progressed. Sometimes just a few drop per 100m sometimes nothing but shoes.
You can’t remove your scent but in time the dog is conditioned to recognise the deer scent.

 

[K9 Contact]

The first track I give a pup may be a fresh drag of a hoof or fresh bit of hide.
Thats simply to gage their interest in following a scent. I haven’t seen a dog that hasn’t taken to it straight away.
So then the next will be with blood and scent shoes and layed a bit older. Again not usually an issue for most dogs.
I don’t continue to drag things because I feel a shoe with cleaves is more natural.
Both my dogs struggled a bit if I didn’t use blood in the early stages.
I then reduced the amount used as the dog progressed. Sometimes just a few drop per 100m sometimes nothing but shoes.
You can’t remove your scent but in time the dog is conditioned to recognise the deer scent.

Right this makes sense The blood builds motivation early while they're still learning the game.

I've read that hooves have 'interdigital' scent glands, and since wounded deers flee on their feet (disturbing the ground and crushing veg), that's why using shoes is best.

And for human scent there's nothing I can really do to remove it. The scent shoes might reduce it a bit, vs my own boots. I'll make sure to leap in and out of the laid track. And maybe have a few games involving thrown deer-dummies. And when on a laid track with my dog the wind will be to my back spreading my scent cone everywhere, but since I'm stood right there, i can trust my dog to ignore my scent.

This is interesting stuff!

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I have a deer indicating dog, he will normally let me know if there are deer up ahead long before I can spot them in thermal. I’m guessing that most dogs will indicate deer scent on the wind if they spend enough time out stalking, I certainly didn’t have to train my dog to do it. More important is to get your dog dead steady on the heel (I can’t bare having a dog on a lead whilst stalking) and then learning to read your dog. Mine visibly starts getting more intense if the deer are close so I can normally tell if there is deer somewhere upwind or whether they are right in close. Another thing, when my dog is at heel he is about 2m in front of me, I used to have him at heel by my side but I found I often missed him giving me hints, so I like him a couple of meters In front of me so I can see everything his body is doing. Also, I have quieter commands for when stalking, a quiet psst means stop pushing out in front, come back, and a tut and flat palm means sit. So to summerise, deer dog training to me is making the dog a perfect companion to stalk with, in the dogs Iv had they have started indicating on their own as their interest in deer has increased. They all indicate slightly different but that’s your job to learn how to read your dog. I have also never laid a false trail for a pup but I just start them on deer I have shot in the open that I can see are dead right there. As the dog progresses I give them harder and harder tracks. Obviously this is easier for me as im shooting deer every day, if I was only shooting a few a year I would probably have to look into man made tracks