How old does a cartridge have to be to be "accepted"?

[KimE]

none if them as cool as the 6.5-284 obviously….
Or the 6.5 Grendel…

Just coincidence that I have those 6.5s


It does amuse me when people get excited about the cartridge not the actual bullet performance.
Its tantamount to people comparing engine displacement rather than performance or the platform its placed in.


One thing I am much more interested in now is the efficiency of a cartridge.

Very very few of the vintage Weatherby, H&H style cartridges can perform to anything like the efficiency levels of more modern designs.
The BR And PPC cases are well known for it but there are lots of other gens out there that have huge potential

The sheer volume of powder required to move a light for calibre/cartridge bullet what is now considered fairly anaemic velocities in cartridges like the 7mmRM, 264 Rem Mag even the 300win mag.
Although the 300wm has significantly better performance in some bullet weights than the 7mm variant.
Its also better matched to the barrel twist.

The 270 is a great cartridge until you step away from the single weight class 130gr or into what is now the normal 20” factory barrels.

Step up to 150gr and the velocity drop is huge. Negating the heavier bullet choice and producing lower energy figures across the board at stalking ranges.


Some of the Norma designed cartridges produce ridiculous efficiency and performance.
But are not well supported by rifle manufacturers
The measure for adoption is brass, ammo, then rifles in my opinion
You can buy brass in all sorts of weird and wonderful chamberings.
But can you buy ammo?
And does anyone produce a factory rifle in the chambering?

I am a new user of 6.5-284
Having shot 270 for decades I was always frustrated with the 150gr limitations of the cartridge.

The 6.5-284 shoots 147gr at .270/130gr velocity with almost 20% less powder!!

The 6.5 Grendel I just built produces over 100fps from every grain of powder in a 19” barrel with 95gr bullets

Thats absurd!!

Great cartridge choise the Grendel would work well for my hunting 6,5 has a good selection of FMJ and OTM bullets.

The .270s are now updated with faster twists and heavy 175gr bullets.

 

[kenbro]

It hasn't. It is an experimental rifle (as the 'X' in the designation denotes) which has only just begun evaluation.

It is in what we here call a 'troops trial' stage with limited purchases and limited issue with future additional purchases, never mind complete adoption, to only be progressed as a result of the evaluation of limited field use by a few selected military units. That evaluation covers the rifle, its desired variants and the cartridge. Any or all can be respecified by the purchaser, or the entire program scrubbed for any one of several reasons, most notably the costs of widespread adoption. With the truly vast procurement costs involved other factors intrude, notably politics which have a habit of throwing large spanners into the works. The military are (of all countries) are understandably nervous about super-pressure bi-metal cased ammunition in wartime field conditions and rapidly ramped up production often with new manufacturers. The cartridge may well be adopted eventually, but that doesn't mean it has to be to its present specification for general issue.

The future of the US Next Generation Squad Weapon Program results and any eventual procurement decisions also depends to at least some extent on the future US relationship with its partners in NATO which has to be up in the air right now with President Trump still to be inaugurated and his policy not yet clear, not to mention the many decisions that will have to be taken vis a vis Russia thanks to the Ukraine invasion. If the US remains in NATO as its cornerstone, complete reequipment by its military partners is a sine qua non for a new US standard cartridge to allow continued battlefield ammunition supply interchangeability. The UK is in the process of buying £90M worth of 5.56mm L403A1s from Knights Armament Co.; Sweden and Finland have just joined NATO and have signed contracts for much larger numbers of new 5.56 rifles to completely re-equip their forces and large sums are being spent by other members on existing smallarms. A move to the 6.8X51 SIG would go down in Germany and in many other NATO members like a lead balloon. The alternative would be the unsatisfactory Vietnam era situation of the US having two cartridges and systems of which the older and less attractive had to be retained for NATO deployment.

I think it’s been adopted now.
Ken.

 

[rem284]

Great cartridge choise the Grendel would work well for my hunting 6,5 has a good selection of FMJ and OTM bullets.

The .270s are now updated with faster twists and heavy 175gr bullets.

That's the trouble, some improvements with new bullet, usually heavier, longer, copper and mainstream rifle manufacturers don't increase the twist rates for decades, if ever.

I use a 270 because I have no choice. My bosses seem to think 1 size fits all

I use a 6.5-284 as a personal rifle because it does everything better than the 270 with less effort and fuss. The problem is, it's not mainstream in production rifles or cartridges. The 6.5 prc has resolved this, so if I ever change my 6.5-284 I will seriously consider the prc

 

[KimE]

The 6,5-284 solved the problem in Sweden to have a 6,5*55 140gr copper bullet at 2700j at100m, to get a legal lead free big game cartridge. Now has the law changed so you only need a 117gr copper bullet at 2000j at 100m ,still a bullet with lead need 2700j if it weight is 139-152gr, 2000j in 154gr.
A problem with 6,5-284 is some people stick it in a short action and some in a standard action a slightly wider case body made many manufactorers think it were too much work to do it as their standard cartridge choise.

 

[Smellydog]

Stop, wait, you mean they've brought others out after 3030?

 

[tackb]

Stop, wait, you mean they've brought others out after 3030?

stop , wait , they brought out a rimmed 30 cal cartridge after the 303 brit that isn't as good ?

 

[Smellydog]

stop , wait , they brought out a rimmed 30 cal cartridge after the 303 brit that isn't as good ?

Yeah, seems so, they thought that if the Brits can come out with **** cartridge so can we.

 

[KimE]

30R Blaser a rimmed magnum 1991.

 

[tackb]

Yeah, seems so, they thought that if the Brits can come out with **** cartridge so can we.

**** ? i assume you typed 'a great' but no idea why it would be blanked out

 

[Smellydog]

**** ? i assume you typed 'a great' but no idea why it would be blanked out

Some say 303 British was outdated as it entered service. It was modified often but never matched the 06 or the Mauser's.

During Boer war the early 303 was out gunned by the Boers Mauser's. They had more range and better accuracy.

 

[tackb]

Some say 303 British was outdated as it entered service. It was modified often but never matched the 06 or the Mauser's.

During Boer war the early 303 was out gunned by the Boers Mauser's. They had more range and better accuracy.

sorry , i thought we were discussing 30-30 ?

 

[Smellydog]

sorry , i thought we were discussing 30-30 ?

No sir, you injected 303 into my comment.

 

[tackb]

deleted because some people have no humour.

 

[KimE]

Some say 303 British was outdated as it entered service. It was modified often but never matched the 06 or the Mauser's.

During Boer war the early 303 was out gunned by the Boers Mauser's. They had more range and better accuracy.

303 British were modern then it was created other cartridges of the same period were 7,62 Russian. 30-40 Krag yes 8mm *57 and 7,62 mauser (Belgium) were ahead. The problem was the new rifles were called back again and again for tiny adjustments just then it was supposed to be in the hand of soldiers.

 

[cjm1066]

17 HMR and Match 2 about the same age, one is selling the other stocked by a gun shop somewhere but that probably old stock.

 

[tackb]

303 British were modern then it was created other cartridges of the same period were 7,62 Russian. 30-40 Krag yes 8mm *57 and 7,62 mauser (Belgium) were ahead. The problem was the new rifles were called back again and again for tiny adjustments just then it was supposed to be in the hand of soldiers.

the 303 was in service a pretty long time , having said that the 7.62x54r is still in service !

 

[tarponhead]

Unpopular opinion time… there are more people who try to be cool by hating on the creedmoor whilst preaching about the virtues of the. .260 or 6.5x55 than there are people who think that they are snipers due to the fact that they use a creedmoor? On this forum at least, people who are using creedmoors seem to be people who simply want to just get on with it whilst enjoying massive availability of ammunition for their chosen cartridge, whereas .260 and 6.5x55 users seem to be the types who spend more time sitting behind their laptop making memes and posting paragraphs on as many forums as possible explaining the numerous benefits to their chosen cartridge!

Not me - me and my swede , we just go hunting. Now she got a new girlfriend in the cabinet - a .308. Also not one of the in-crowd, but we’re OK with that.

 

[User00056]

Convince the hunters and you have the market

Why the .270 has stood the test of time. Sure, it may have limited bullet options, but when a chambering works as well as this one does why would you need more than a couple?

 

[enfieldspares]

How long does a cartridge have to be in use and available to become accepted and not a flash in the pan or pooh poohed? I would suggest 20 years minimum, maybe even 50?
Many of the standard rounds we use today are 50+ years old, some even over 100 years.
What are the SD members thoughts on the matter?

Ah but then some that had a long life then fade away. Some even once widely used. For the truth is that we now see a world dominated by American products. So in handguns the .455 Webley is moribund and in rifles the .303" but once was used all over those pink coloured lands on the map of the world.

And 7.92mm Mauser aka 8x57 is also effectively gone. The result you say of Germany losing two World Wars? But what of the 9mm Parabellum or was that a different Germany? There's really no rhyme nor reason to what becomes accepted and what finishes as merely as a "do you remember when..." cartridge.

Nor is being "King of the Hill" any guarantee. The .220" Swift, the .300" Weatherby or the .30"/.378" Weatherby and before that .30" calibre "King" the .300" Holland and Holland all were once the zenith but now like the .222" Remington Magnum have been mostly superseded by offerings of lesser velocity.

 

[User00056]

I use a 270 because I have no choice. My bosses seem to think 1 size fits all

I use a 6.5-284 as a personal rifle because it does everything better than the 270 with less effort and fuss. The problem is, it's not mainstream in production rifles or cartridges.

Then why not just learn to use the .270 and accept it for what it is? A superb cartridge

What effort? What fuss? It's an overbore long action that just works