Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban

[Spear Chucker]

I saw the following letter appear in the Country Squire magazine this morning. Yes, I know, them again, but they are the only people who will publish documents / evidence on the topic that is contrary to a ban.
It is relatively interesting.

MPs to be Misled by ‘Ban Lead Ammunition’ Propagandists? COUNTRY SQUIRE MAGAZINE

BY MARK CRUDGINGTON To: The Rt Hon Steve Reed MPSecretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural AffairsDepartment for Environment, Food & Rural AffairsSeacole Building, 2 Marsham StreetLondo…

countrysquire.co.uk

 

[Heym SR20]

Mark Crudgington has been talking about this for a long time. However the pro lead, anti ban side have yet to be able provide any solid scientific evidence to successfully demonstrate that lead is NOT harmful to living organisms.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Mark Crudgington has been talking about this for a long time. However the pro lead, anti ban side have yet to be able provide any solid scientific evidence to successfully demonstrate that lead is NOT harmful to living organisms.

With respect...Yawn...neither have the pro ban side come up with anything that definitively proves that Lead from shot does harm living organisms. What is more, they flatly refuse to carry out the tests that would show the true source of the alleged poisoning in waterfowl they allege died from lead poisoning. What they have achieved therefore, is through crookery and slight of hand, selectively using information posited by reports commissioned by RSPB and others with an anti shooting bias.
Sadly, I am convinced that you would toe the BASC line even if they were (as they should, on the grounds of humane kill and animal welfare) advocating a complete ban on the taking of all game and vermin by firearms in the absence of lead as a medium.
Let's not do this again. It is an interesting article and thought provoking... at least for those of us capable of rational independent thought and having open minds. That is all.
By the way, copper is also toxic and is far more likely to taint meat than lead, and far more quickly too.

 

[Heym SR20]

With respect...Yawn...neither have the pro ban side come up with anything that definitively proves that Lead from shot does harm living organisms. What is more, they flatly refuse to carry out the tests that would show the true source of the alleged poisoning in waterfowl they allege died from lead poisoning. What they have achieved therefore, is through crookery and slight of hand, selectively using information posited by reports commissioned by RSPB and others with an anti shooting bias.
Sadly, I am convinced that you would toe the BASC line even if they were (as they should, on the grounds of humane kill and animal welfare) advocating a complete ban on the taking of all game and vermin by firearms in the absence of lead as a medium.
Let's not do this again. It is an interesting article and thought provoking... at least for those of us capable of rational independent thought and having open minds. That is all.
By the way, copper is also toxic and is far more likely to taint meat than lead, and far more quickly too.

You are talking utter bollox. The real science is being done in man and looking at the effects of lead on our immune systems. Most in the shooting community, nor in the wider public are aware of such research. But it’s widely understood within the medical and increasingly amongst public health, and it is this that has driven the phasing out of lead from every day walks of life.

They used to use lead solder to seal cans of meat and fish. This was found to give rise to all sorts of health issues in the 1950’s and 60’s, so lead is no longer used in packaging of food products.

The pro lead side seem to think that lead used in shot is a completely different molecule to that used in lead solders, piping, or in compounds in paints, petrol etc. and is completely different from lead used in military ammunition that caused great concern to the war department’s in WW1 and 2, as ammunition workers kept getting ill, and interfered with production.

 

[Heym SR20]

Besides, you posted the letter in the first place, so if you don’t want a debate, don’t start it.

 

[cjm1066]

The letter is measured and informs.

Good luck to them, we can perhaps keep lead for some uses, lets concentrate on those, as Paracelsus said “All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison”.

However the lead debate has been covered extensively on SD, contacting your MP might help – reusing the augment son here is getting tedious.

 

[grandad of the woods]

Hmmmmm heating up in here .... Just add to the mix that grandad parents that have shot and eaten game there entire life and has no doubt ingested a large amount of **** from ducks pheasant rabbit ect and are still quite healthy, maybe just a though there lead ban has nothing to do with concerns of health but more on restricting shooters ability to cast there own rounds ????? Just a thought



****** Let the hate commence*******

 

[Lee260]

You are talking utter bollox. The real science is being done in man and looking at the effects of lead on our immune systems. Most in the shooting community, nor in the wider public are aware of such research. But it’s widely understood within the medical and increasingly amongst public health, and it is this that has driven the phasing out of lead from every day walks of life.

They used to use lead solder to seal cans of meat and fish. This was found to give rise to all sorts of health issues in the 1950’s and 60’s, so lead is no longer used in packaging of food products.

The pro lead side seem to think that lead used in shot is a completely different molecule to that used in lead solders, piping, or in compounds in paints, petrol etc. and is completely different from lead used in military ammunition that caused great concern to the war department’s in WW1 and 2, as ammunition workers kept getting ill, and interfered with production.

I take it there is no danger from lead used on houses, stately houses, churches, industrial units, factories and so on getting into the water table. I gather this the case as I haven't seen any demands for these buildings to be striped of it.

 

[Cloudhopper]

You are talking utter bollox. The real science is being done in man and looking at the effects of lead on our immune systems. Most in the shooting community, nor in the wider public are aware of such research. But it’s widely understood within the medical and increasingly amongst public health, and it is this that has driven the phasing out of lead from every day walks of life.

They used to use lead solder to seal cans of meat and fish. This was found to give rise to all sorts of health issues in the 1950’s and 60’s, so lead is no longer used in packaging of food products.

The pro lead side seem to think that lead used in shot is a completely different molecule to that used in lead solders, piping, or in compounds in paints, petrol etc. and is completely different from lead used in military ammunition that caused great concern to the war department’s in WW1 and 2, as ammunition workers kept getting ill, and interfered with production.

The lead used in a bullet to kill an animal is not presented to an individual in an ingestible form. Being exposed to lead in paints or piping or in manufacturing and processing over a period of time is likely to result in lead poisoning. This is a completely different scenario. I note that bullet manufacture using lead will continue for military and LE purposes so the risk to those involved will not have gone away. This lead ban doesn't make much sense to me I'm afraid.
CH

 

[andyk]

To be fair, those seem reasonable requests which, if followed, would still allow the restriction to be nearly as effective as it will otherwise be.

I can’t see that any of those proposed exemptions are likely to contribute large amounts of lead - particularly if the small bore exemption was limited to a max of 18gr to deter people from swapping their 12b for a 28b shooting 28gr loads.

I could foresee some saying that the exemptions would be abused, but that could be worked around - with the obvious ‘stick’ that if they were commonplace, the exemptions would be removed.

 

[Rewulf]

The real science is being done in man and looking at the effects of lead on our immune systems.

The 'real' science has been done to death, its not a good idea for humans to ingest lead...Or copper, or steel, bismuth or plastic.
The lead ban appears to predominantly swayed by the effect it has on the wild bird population, or more importantly, the theoretical effect, because a tiny sample of birds appear to be affected by it.
If you think its more important that the reputed 50-100,000 birds a year that die from lead poisoning, than the millions upon millions that die from agricultural poisoning, predation, and being shot, then it seems its more of a priority issue, no doubt swayed by political point scoring.

Make no mistake, this will end up being an 'own goal' for the government, and others....

I could foresee some saying that the exemptions would be abused

According to the anti shooting lobby, virtually no one uses non toxic loads for fowling ?
So, according to them, the 'stick' doesnt work, and a blanket ban is justified ?
Again, no real evidence supplied, more like heresay, and very small sample sizes.

 

[timbrayford]

Mark Crudgington has been talking about this for a long time. However the pro lead, anti ban side have yet to be able provide any solid scientific evidence to successfully demonstrate that lead is NOT harmful to living organisms.

What proof is there that anything isn't harmful to living organisms? Perhaps drinking water ought to be banned too?

 

[andyk]

@Rewulf to that I’d say that this will be a far more comprehensive ban, whatever shape it takes.

So, give us 5 years. If there’s good evidence that game is still turning up filled with lead from modern 20b + shotguns then we’ve made our own gallows, and can’t really argue against a full ban. Another 5 years isn’t going to make a big difference given the couple of centuries before.

If not, then some semblance of sense has prevailed.

 

[grandad of the woods]

Also just curious has there been any testing on what happens when you put a pheasent in the oven with bismoith or tungsten shot and if that wants the meat ect ?

 

[andyk]

Also just curious has there been any testing on what happens when you put a pheasent in the oven with bismoith or tungsten shot and if that wants the meat ect ?

Would be surprised if it mattered with bismuth but TSS is held together with a resin, so it could conceivably start to melt.

 

[rollotomassi]

Water IS toxic in large quantities

 

[Smellydog]

as ammunition workers kept getting ill, and interfered with production.

I think you have read a biased journal on that point.
It was other substances that affected ammunition workers . Phosphorus poisoning was one.

Besides, as you say, it's the same lead used world wide today in munition producers and err, nobody gets ill affecting production.
I know people that have worked at Radway Green for decades, guess what, they aren't ill or affected production.

You are confusing lead derivatives and compounds with the low reactivity of static lead as a metal. Unless you are sucking a lead lollie your good

Every day thousands of medical professionals handle lead too.

And I drink water from a lead pipe and all my neighbours do too. One dear old lady passed away at 96 after living here for 50years.

Now, I don't doubt your findings one bit but I would definitely question as to whether banning lead shot is going to transform the health of the nation.
Us shooters are in a minority so all the victims of lead must be getting it from somewhere else, not from us!

Maybe it's all the zinc coated products that surround us or maybe it's been sprinkled on us from above, I don't know nor care because frankly in this life there are only two eventualities, taxation and death....

 

[grandad of the woods]

Would be surprised if it mattered with bismuth but TSS is held together with a resin, so it could conceivably start to melt.

Be interesting and you never manage to remove all of the **** so what are the heath issues of swallowing bismuth or TSS
As you say held together by resign I'll assume it's not food grade resin lol ??

 

[Rewulf]

@Rewulf to that I’d say that this will be a far more comprehensive ban, whatever shape it takes.

Absolutely, we are being lined up for this....

So, give us 5 years. If there’s good evidence that game is still turning up filled with lead from modern 20b + shotguns then we’ve made our own gallows, and can’t really argue against a full ban. Another 5 years isn’t going to make a big difference given the couple of centuries before.

Theres no good evidence that the lead ban for fowling is being ignored, so when it comes to this imaginary massive market for non lead shot game meat *, the powers that be will produce evidence that we are ignoring the impending ban now.
Just another excuse to limit private firearms usage by making ammunition impossible to afford for the ordinary person.

Its not lead theyre coming after, its private firearms ownership.

*Fieldsports channel have just done a piece on this, and talk about the vast cost of bismuth now, making shooting with it either way too expensive, or, the fact that cart manufacturers know that people wont pay for it, so will not produce bismuth carts, leading to impossibility to obtain them.
This is a vicious circle , leading to people giving up shooting sports in unprecedented numbers=less demand=higher ammunition prices....

 

[timbrayford]

@Rewulf to that I’d say that this will be a far more comprehensive ban, whatever shape it takes.

So, give us 5 years. If there’s good evidence that game is still turning up filled with lead from modern 20b + shotguns then we’ve made our own gallows, and can’t really argue against a full ban. Another 5 years isn’t going to make a big difference given the couple of centuries before.

If not, then some semblance of sense has prevailed.

I'd give it a bit of distance before taking the shot if I were you!