Sauer 202 issues!

[HonestJohn]

I’ve used a number of sauers over the years with friends and clients. Most if not all it all have had serious accuracy tantrums. The new 505 is an abomination.

The T3 is a WV Passat.

I don’t think there’s one new rifle in the market right now I’d want to buy. It’s like the early 2000’s for music, loads of it, and all terrible.

A new Mauser 98 perhaps, or a new Schultz Larsen, if Morten could get around to making a double stack with swing floor-plate for the wood stocks, optional open sights, a trigger with absolutely zero creep and, and a decent factory supplied synthetic stock with a proper adjustable comb raiser that has a bottom metal ‘option’ for aics mags.

 

[8x57]

What nonsense…they don’t need to be sent back to Germany at all - they can be worked on the same as any “ten a penny” tikka and I can guarantee the Sauer Will outlast the tikka if looked after properly and will function in a far better manner, the fact Sauer have been building rifles since 1750’s and tikka didn’t start until 200 years later (1960’s) is a good indicator of this.

Not quite gixer, Tikka go back a little bit more than that, to quote American Rifleman-

"In 1918, Oy Tikkakoski Ab, better known today as simply Tikka, began making gun components in central Finland. Two years later, it acquired the machinery to manufacture its own barrels. By 1927, the company was producing those worn by the Mosin-Nagants issued to the nation’s military. Complete, Three-Line M27 versions of that rifle were soon coming out of the Tikka factory and continued to do so until 1940.

A German businessman purchased Tikka in 1930 and wisely nudged the firm from its exclusive focus on bolt-action rifles. In 1931, for example, it began manufacturing submachine guns, and heavy machine guns followed in 1933, as well as other military items. In 1937, the first Tikka hunting rifles rolled out of the factory, although the commercial project took a backseat with the approach and outbreak of World War II. Once again, the factory’s primary focus returned to martial arms and gear"

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Never had issues with my sauer 404. And my good friends never had issues with them.

From experience its the people shooting it or not looking after it.

Mine for example I woul give it a deep clean every 100 rounds or so. Always shot und 3/4" if i did my part.

Alot of the problem comes with the engineering behind them requires a bit of thought when setting them up. The 404 mounts are an engineering masterpiece but way to complicated. And you need to set the battel tension right on them for the interchangeable battel piece.

The 202 for what ever reason people over tightened and stripped the threads off the receiver because they are idiots and cant read or fathom

If you want a rifle thats fantastic engineered, lovely to use, accurate and you know how the system works in depth then absolute go for it. You will not be disappointed. Theres a reason they have a following. The 505 is crap though I will admit. 404/202 is a better system

If your not, get a tikka. They are a simple, cheap and easy to operate. In my eyes still an £800 quid rifle thats not worth the daft money they are new now.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Bipod? - remove it. the fore-end won't allow for any tension in a bipod without issues. You can rest vertically without any lateral or forward pressure.
shoot off a bag instead
Remove and refit the fore-end with correct torque to retaining bolt, make sure the wood is central and clear of barrel before torquing

If the bases are moving or you suspect they are you will need to resolve that first
plenty of base options from EAW, Leupold, to lowly weaver dovetails and picatinny rings

 

[Jager Waffen74]

Never had issues with my sauer 404. And my good friends never had issues with them.

From experience its the people shooting it or not looking after it.

Mine for example I woul give it a deep clean every 100 rounds or so. Always shot und 3/4" if i did my part.

Alot of the problem comes with the engineering behind them requires a bit of thought when setting them up. The 404 mounts are an engineering masterpiece but way to complicated. And you need to set the battel tension right on them for the interchangeable battel piece.

The 202 for what ever reason people over tightened and stripped the threads off the receiver because they are idiots and cant read or fathom

If you want a rifle thats fantastic engineered, lovely to use, accurate and you know how the system works in depth then absolute go for it. You will not be disappointed. Theres a reason they have a following. The 505 is crap though I will admit. 404/202 is a better system

If your not, get a tikka. They are a simple, cheap and easy to operate. In my eyes still an £800 quid rifle thats not worth the daft money they are new now.

That is what happened with mine. I purchased the 202 Highland second hand and never noticed the front head stripped. It was stripped enough to not tighten but still treads to hold the screw in. I was planning on using the Leupold qd mounts but my Smith talked me into the EAW mounts. He is going up to the 8/40 screw for the mounts. I have a 202 Forest in 06 and I run an aimpoint on EAW mounts so I will be able to swap the aimpoint back and fourth.

 

[gixer1]

Not quite gixer, Tikka go back a little bit more than that, to quote American Rifleman-

"In 1918, Oy Tikkakoski Ab, better known today as simply Tikka, began making gun components in central Finland. Two years later, it acquired the machinery to manufacture its own barrels. By 1927, the company was producing those worn by the Mosin-Nagants issued to the nation’s military. Complete, Three-Line M27 versions of that rifle were soon coming out of the Tikka factory and continued to do so until 1940.

A German businessman purchased Tikka in 1930 and wisely nudged the firm from its exclusive focus on bolt-action rifles. In 1931, for example, it began manufacturing submachine guns, and heavy machine guns followed in 1933, as well as other military items. In 1937, the first Tikka hunting rifles rolled out of the factory, although the commercial project took a backseat with the approach and outbreak of World War II. Once again, the factory’s primary focus returned to martial arms and gear"

Still not the history or experience of Sauer though…

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

That is what happened with mine. I purchased the 202 Highland second hand and never noticed the front head stripped. It was stripped enough to not tighten but still treads to hold the screw in. I was planning on using the Leupold qd mounts but my Smith talked me into the EAW mounts. He is going up to the 8/40 screw for the mounts. I have a 202 Forest in 06 and I run an aimpoint on EAW mounts so I will be able to swap the aimpoint back and fourth.

Good option. He should be able to ream and re thread to a bigger thread size easily enough!

 

[gixer1]

and yet, the T3 is a much better designed action than any Sauer. Light weight and simple in design. Every Sauer I know of in our area had to be sent back to the factory to be fixed. No local company would touch them. Our local guys really love their Sauer 202 rifles but hardly ever use them for hunting. Just "Prima Donna" rifles that come to the shoot in a nice box... get wiped down after and boxed again.
edi

How is a T3 a “better” design? Just because you are a fan of something doesn’t make it a better design, you simply prefer that design.

Tikka build a good product to a budget - the materials and finish will always reflect this - that’s just the way it is - Sauer spend more on the materials and manufacturing of each rifle, therefore can use better materials (ilaflon for example) and more advanced manufacturing and machining (barrel headspacing/bolt lug system and change out without the need to zero)

It’s almost a reverse snobbery thing with you it seems…anyone that has ever operated the bolt of a Sauer next to a tikka would be hard pushed to argue that there is not a significant difference in design and quality unless they are a blind, deaf mute…

A tikka will work, but that’s like saying you could do a European grand tour in a Ford fiesta
- sure you can - but most would rather do it in an Aston Martin or Bentley.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Still not the history or experience of Sauer though…

Thing is you cant compare the two companies.

Having handled both in know what my money would be on each time and it isnt a tikka...

202 was the most popular hunting rifle in Europe before the blaser came along as people valued quality along with wanting a rifle to last a lifetime.

Its probably now tikka because they absolutely mcdonalds the hell out the market.... tikka is an affordable rifle made to a price point thats does a good job. They are the Toyota corolla of the rifle world.

 

[BigT]

Still not the history or experience of Sauer though…

As I recall Peugeot are an older company than BMW too

I don’t think that makes the older company the better one just because it’s been around longer.

Otherwise we would have to argue that the BRX1 is better than any gun sauer ever made which I think would be untrue.

 

[ejg]

If one is really looking for rifle performance in accuracy and reliability as competition shooters would be...... why do they steer clear of Sauer? You do find quite a few Tikka's in competitions world wide, these people are not stupid. Of course the Sauer 202 can appeal to those looking for a more traditional sunday rifle that looks nice in some eyes. I look at rifles more from the engineering side as well as reliability in the field in harsch conditions.
If a product is cheaper, is more reliable, is more accurate, performs better.... then the engineer did a better job. It is a better engineered product.
edi

 

[AlexD]

If anyone is unhappy with their Sauer 202 and has nice wood on it, please PM me to flog the thing you despise so you can get a T3 or something you will be happy with. (NB: So long as your barrel takes rounds smaller than 6.5x.284 in all dimensions, e.g. a 6.5 x 55 Swede).

As Ed mentioned above, Sauer 202s do not like things on their front end such as bipods. Sticks are fine, oddly, even the garden centre variety like mine, but not bipods. Tensioning the sling before pulling the trigger them helps too, unless you have shaved some material off the front end to give the barrel a wee bit more space to move.

The Sauer fancy wood stocks are beautiful, but confess to having snapped one and fixed it up, as they complex grain makes them weak. I understand why people get these things in synthetic or carbon. On the stock, if there is any movement at all between the stock and action, then accuracy is totally out of the window; the hex bolts have to be tight.

What I likout 202s is there is enormous potential for great accuracy out of them. The Sauer bolt engages full with the barrel itself, not just with the junction between barrel and action. That detail in the barrel is awkward to machine, but rechambering an existing barrel to suit one's favourite round is easy. Its a pity barrels do not fit into EDM die sinker machines, as I have a barrel blank here that I am about to set into.

 

[8x57]

A tikka will work, but that’s like saying you could do a European grand tour in a Ford fiesta
- sure you can - but most would rather do it in an Aston Martin or Bentley.

I get your point gixer but possibly not the best analogy as a Fiesta, Aston or Bentley would not be the most practical of cars to do a European tour.
However the Bentley would be the nicest.

It's pretty much the same with rifles, there isn't a rifle made that doesn't have some fault or idiosyncrasy. In the end it will always come down to personal choice, what you can afford and what you can live with. Some are however nicer looking than others and some don't hurt the pocket quite the same. Most will do the job.

P.S. I've had a couple of Tikka rifles and came close to buying a Sauer 202 twice, but events conspired against me on both occasions. That's not to say I wouldn't buy one at some time in the future.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

If one is really looking for rifle performance in accuracy and reliability as competition shooters would be...... why do they steer clear of Sauer? You do find quite a few Tikka's in competitions world wide, these people are not stupid. Of course the Sauer 202 can appeal to those looking for a more traditional sunday rifle that looks nice in some eyes. I look at rifles more from the engineering side as well as reliability in the field in harsch conditions.
If a product is cheaper, is more reliable, is more accurate, performs better.... then the engineer did a better job. It is a better engineered product.
edi

They use tikka because they are cheap and avaliable easy to work on and do the job well. As an engineer you would obviously understand scale of economy and ease of manufacturing and the price per unit.

They are not the same rifle nor are they aimed at the same market.

Also fundimentaly different engineering processes. Your not finding plasma nitritrided and edm machined components or nato certified barrel steel on tikka rifles. But you will on a sauer/blaser.

In any case going off what you've said for reliability accuracy . Id be buying an accuracy international... one of the finest rifles in the world

 

[bobo]

If one is really looking for rifle performance in accuracy and reliability as competition shooters would be...... why do they steer clear of Sauer? You do find quite a few Tikka's in competitions world wide, these people are not stupid. Of course the Sauer 202 can appeal to those looking for a more traditional sunday rifle that looks nice in some eyes. I look at rifles more from the engineering side as well as reliability in the field in harsch conditions.
If a product is cheaper, is more reliable, is more accurate, performs better.... then the engineer did a better job. It is a better engineered product.
edi

I do think the Sauer 200 STR is the most commonly used precision target rifle used here in Scandinavia.
Most of our top competition shooters use Sauer 200 STR, but of course there are a few exceptions..
I have seen in person how a Danish competition shooter armed with a 6,5x55 Sauer 200 STR shot full house on a 48-shot field shooting competition. The targets are placed at random ranges between 25 and 650 meters, ranging done by mark one eyeball, and only 45 seconds to fire 6 shot groups at each station.

That takes a rifle with smooth bolt action, perfect feeding and good balance on the stations that have to be taken kneeling or free standing.

That said, I had a Sauer 202 for more than 10 years, my 2 barrels where 6,5x55 and 9,3x62. I had my share of problems like shots going off when opening the bolt, rust issues, and unreliability in dusty or cold conditions.
But I never had problems with precision, the rifle always shot better that me.

 

[JGLD]

I do think the Sauer 200 STR is the most commonly used precision target rifle used here in Scandinavia.
Most of our top competition shooters use Sauer 200 STR, but of course there are a few exceptions..
I have seen in person how a Danish competition shooter armed with a 6,5x55 Sauer 200 STR shot full house on a 48-shot field shooting competition. The targets are placed at random ranges between 25 and 650 meters, ranging done by mark one eyeball, and only 45 seconds to fire 6 shot groups at each station.

That takes a rifle with smooth bolt action, perfect feeding and good balance on the stations that have to be taken kneeling or free standing.

That said, I had a Sauer 202 for more than 10 years, my 2 barrels where 6,5x55 and 9,3x62. I had my share of problems like shots going off when opening the bolt, rust issues, and unreliability in dusty or cold conditions.
But I never had problems with precision, the rifle always shot better that me.

Could you expand on the issue of shots going off when opening the bolt? Was that because the safety must be off to open the bolt, or another issue to be aware of?

 

[bobo]

Could you expand on the issue of shots going off when opening the bolt? Was that because the safety must be off to open the bolt, or another issue to be aware of?

We called it “the Sauer Disease” here. A lot of 202s had it, but that said it was one of the most sold rifles here 15-25 years ago so many 1000s of them in use, and maybe "only" 10% had it (just a my humble private estimate). Certain years of manufacture seemed hit worse than others by it, my rifle was bought from new 2007.

The problem is it clicks when the trigger is pulled. Then, when one tries to open the bolt, the shot goes. First time it happened to me I almost needed new underwear, but after that I knew what happened after a click. The problem was not consistent, sometimes you can fire more than 100 shots without clicks, then suddenly it happened.

According to the gun shop, the issue was not existing, but luckily one question on a Danish forum overwhelmed with people who had similar experiences, and the solution should be to let gunsmith Arne Holgersen fix it. I took the rifle to Arne Holgersen, and he knew the problem very well and fixed some angle down in the trigger mechanism, I have never had any problem since.

 

[bbrc]

Ive had multiple 202’s for years with zero issues except one with aluminium action that stripped the mount threads when removing the sometimes factory supplied combined ring and base that were attached with epoxy as well as the screws, retapped 8-40 and bonded on a picatinny rail and zero issues since.
I regularly swap barrels and am very happy with the return to zero and one of the best features is that because of the two piece stock and the one piece action that means there is no separate floor plate and therefore no bedding issues sometimes associated with other rifle designs, I can swap stocks, remove the trigger unit, completely strip the action if I wanted too and when I reassemble it will still be shoot to the same point of impact, no need to re-zero, not so with conventional designs like the t3 or remmy 700. Add to this that you can simply replace the barrel without a long wait for a gunsmith to machine up a barrel blank for you and then be without your rifle for even longer whilst it makes a lengthy trip to proof house for reproof.
I have witnessed one which supposedly wouldn’t shoot but the problem wasn’t the rifle it was the ham fisted owner who tightened the forend screw so tight it warped the forend so it touched the barrel, at the correct torque or indeed just a sensible amount of torque there was no problem.
The barrel steel can be prone to corrosion if not looked after so when buying second hand a borescope is handy.
They are lovely rifles to use, they are designed and built to be different to conventional designs and to be a premium product, comparing them to a built to a price point rifle like a Tikka t3 in any way other than that they both launch a bullet is silly, its like comparing a factory tikka injection moulded stock to a fancy aftermarket composite offering.

 

[JGLD]

We called it “the Sauer Disease” here. A lot of 202s had it, but that said it was one of the most sold rifles here 15-25 years ago so many 1000s of them in use, and maybe "only" 10% had it (just a my humble private estimate). Certain years of manufacture seemed hit worse than others by it, my rifle was bought from new 2007.

The problem is it clicks when the trigger is pulled. Then, when one tries to open the bolt, the shot goes. First time it happened to me I almost needed new underwear, but after that I knew what happened after a click. The problem was not consistent, sometimes you can fire more than 100 shots without clicks, then suddenly it happened.

According to the gun shop, the issue was not existing, but luckily one question on a Danish forum overwhelmed with people who had similar experiences, and the solution should be to let gunsmith Arne Holgersen fix it. I took the rifle to Arne Holgersen, and he knew the problem very well and fixed some angle down in the trigger mechanism, I have never had any problem since.

Thank you. Interesting one to watch for. I can understand the new underwear! Would it have any way been connected to selection of the ‘set’ trigger?

 

[gixer1]

As I recall Peugeot are an older company than BMW too

I don’t think that makes the older company the better one just because it’s been around longer.

Otherwise we would have to argue that the BRX1 is better than any gun sauer ever made which I think would be untrue.

It’s absolutely a consideration - experience and learning from that experience can make a big difference in the designs and decisions implemented.