Old SxSs

[harrygrey382]

Been hankering after an upgrade for my single barrel 12g snake gun. I like the idea of an old English hammerless SxS, just for the sake of it. I’ve never missed with the first shot but having a second barrel would be nice just in case… Looking in the $300-800 range, there are actually a lot of options including older nitro proofed 2 3/4” SxSs with apparently tight actions, full working order and reasonable condition. Eg a Greener Empire, a Holloway & Norton and a Cashmore all similar (good) condition box lock extractors.

I was leaning Greener but the well priced (still the most expensive here at $800) one is full/full and H&N reports are very high and it’s only $575 with IC chokes . Also left of field are Brno ZP49s which attractively are ejector and reportedly very reliable, but don’t have the allure of being English and I’d probably have to remove the cheek piece - just because…

I may at some point get a hand thrower or come upon a trap but this is a vague idea at best - main use is for brown snakes in the garden. Yes 410 would be fine but where’s the fun in that? It’s not impossible I could go shooting birds, but not likely at the moment. I literally could not be less interested in U/Os.

So what are people’s favourite old SxSs?

 

[matt_1029]

I have a old bsa from the 30s box lock ejector. Must have put thousands of cartridges through it . Shot everything from a rat to grouse to a fox with it . I do like the Prince of Wales stock on it . Not worth alot but a good old gun .

 

[JTO]

Greener side safety to get used to!

 

[harrygrey382]

I have an old bsa from the 30s box lock ejector. Must have put thousands of cartridges through it . Shot everything from a rat to grouse to a fox with it . I do like the Prince of Wales stock on it . Not worth alot but a good old gun .

Actually I saw a really nice looking BSA pretty cheap that sold very fast. Did some research and seemed to have the name “poor man’s purdy” - would’ve been a good buy I reckon

Greener side safety to get used to!

Not a problem for me as I’m not used to any other safety (my current single barrel is a hammer gun), and I tend not to use safeties on rifles anyway

 

[Sika98k]

I’ve owned a few over the years. Several Webley&Scott 12’s, one in 16 bore, a Greener FH35 with 26” barrels, non ejector with I/C in both barrels. It was a superb gun to shoot and I regret selling it. The cross pins wobbled out on a busy days pigeon shooting and had to be tapped back in. A W. R. Pape 12 was a nice gun to shoot although it was a hammer gun. Currently in the game season I shoot a Bonehill 16 bore and miss birds with panache !
Any Anson&Dealy action is going to be pretty solid. I do have a hankering to get a Greener GP again as a knockabout gun.

 

[JTO]

Lots of names to look at.

 

[Lever357]

Have a look at sporting auctions - Holts, Southams, Mitchells, Wilson 55 etc - hundreds of side by sides struggle to sell so you should pick up a bargain

 

[Triggermortis]

1886 F.T.Baker 20b hammerless ejector, originally a Damascus gun but has been re-barrelled,a good London gun,with the lead ban Imminent I suspect you won’t be able to give some of these guns away?

 

[harrygrey382]

I’ve owned a few over the years. Several Webley&Scott 12’s, one in 16 bore, a Greener FH35 with 26” barrels, non ejector with I/C in both barrels. It was a superb gun to shoot and I regret selling it. The cross pins wobbled out on a busy days pigeon shooting and had to be tapped back in. A W. R. Pape 12 was a nice gun to shoot although it was a hammer gun. Currently in the game season I shoot a Bonehill 16 bore and miss birds with panache !
Any Anson&Dealy action is going to be pretty solid. I do have a hankering to get a Greener GP again as a knockabout gun.

Ha ha i love the idea of missing with panache! Im sure using a fine gun makes everything nicer… it’s a struggle to find any negatives about a Greener. Anson and Dealy is the design or did they make actions for others? Have you come across Holloway and Naghton?

Have a look at sporting auctions - Holts, Southams, Mitchells, Wilson 55 etc - hundreds of side by sides struggle to sell so you should pick up a bargain

I think importing into Australia will well and truly dampen any bargain from the UK sadly.

1886 F.T.Baker 20b hammerless ejector, originally a Damascus gun but has been re-barrelled,a good London gun,with the lead ban Imminent I suspect you won’t be able to give some of these guns away?

That is a truly beautiful gun, it would look good anywhere! I’d snap up that sort of thing in a heartbeat. Fortunately we are not facing any lead ban, and as all my shooting is “on-farm”, it would be irrelevant anyway. Irregardless, the price of nice box lock extractors seems to be at an all time low

 

[Sika98k]

Ha ha i love the idea of missing with panache! Im sure using a fine gun makes everything nicer… it’s a struggle to find any negatives about a Greener. Anson and Dealy is the design or did they make actions for others? Have you come across Holloway and Naghton?

I think importing into Australia will well and truly dampen any bargain from the UK sadly.



That is a truly beautiful gun, it would look good anywhere! I’d snap up that sort of thing in a heartbeat. Fortunately we are not facing any lead ban, and as all my shooting is “on-farm”, it would be irrelevant anyway. Irregardless, the price of nice box lock extractors seems to be at an all time low

I had a Quick Look at Wikipedia so I wasn’t going to talk out of my nether regions ! The Anson & Deeley action stems from 1875 and is the continuing basis for many boxlock double barreled shotguns.

 

[Stimo444]

Greener side safety to get used to!

But a thing of beauty

 

[lochty]

Have a look at Gavin Gardiner auctions. I have an Army and Navy sbs in his November auction. New wood, new barrels and will be well within your price range.

 

[JTO]

Have a look at sporting auctions - Holts, Southams, Mitchells, Wilson 55 etc - hundreds of side by sides struggle to sell so you should pick up a bargain

The postage to Australia mine take the shine off a bargain.

 

[Heym SR20]

Have a read of the Vintage Gun Journals - lots of really useful information Read The Vintage Gun Journal by Vintage Guns

Then I would look locally in Australia for guns. There will have been many many British made shotguns sent down to Aus back in the day.

Two main types

Sidelocks - generally on top end guns. Are things of beauty, but, and its a big but, they have lots of small parts in their lock work and typically cost of repair starts at a few hundred pounds. Mostly parts will need to be made from a piece of steel, filed and cut to shape, fitted, then removed, hardened and annealed and then stoned fir final fit.

Box locks - originally invented by Messers Anson & Deally who were employed at Westly Richards - one was the gunsmith, the other the MD and their names were on the original patent. It is a very much simpler action with about 4 moving parts on each side. Use of the original patent was granted widely to the rest of the Birmingham guntrade and large numbers of boxlock guns were produced by various makers. Some were finished by the maker themselves (Webley & Scott) and sold under those names, but vast numbers were supplied to other retailers around the world in various states of finish, with the local retailer then finishing and putting their name on it.

What to look for:

1) Screws and pins - a good gunsmith will know how to use a well fitting turnscrew and the correct downward pressure and force to remove a screw or pin without damaging it. If the screws are burred then an idiot has been inside the gun.

2) Barrels - on the flats of the barrels will be the proof marks. One of the marks indicates the original barrel bore dimensions. Over time bores do wear, but most of the wear will come from barrels being cleaned up because somebody hasn’t bothered to clean them and they have got pitted.

Barrel wall thickness - not marked on the barrels, but thickness again gives an indication of wear. Guns originally had various different thicknesses- some were thin 20 thou from factory, others were 30 to 35 thou. If the walls are thin then there is not much future room to do other work. It’s like a car engine with 150,000 miles on it.

Much more important though is overall condition. The barrels should ring like a bell. If not then major work is required.

Overall condition- look for a gun in good overall unmessed condition. Try and find something that has been put away well cleaned and not restored. Look at plenty and you will build up a good idea of what works for you.

Fit - simple - look at the top corner of the room. Close your eyes and mount the gun - if its pointing where you look then its a reasonable fit. If it doesn’t move on to the next.

Happy hunting.

 

[harrygrey382]

But a thing of beauty

Yes indeed!

Have a look at Gavin Gardiner auctions. I have an Army and Navy sbs in his November auction. New wood, new barrels and will be well within your price range.

Sounds lovely, I see A&Ns come up a bit, generally quite pricey though - they’re quite desirable it seems? Are they London made?

The postage to Australia mine take the shine off a bargain.

100%, not to mention the import fees

 

[enfieldspares]

There is, or used to be an auction house near Melbourne? I don't know the law in Australia about buying in one State and transporting to another.

 

[Pedro]

There really are so many “makes” of old English SXS guns. Most towns at one time had a business that sold them. Of course they were mostly Birmingham made box locks that were finished for or by the local sellers and sold under their own name. If you aren’t fussed about having ejectors they cost peanuts these days. In fact most firearms dealers in the UK really don’t want them, some won’t have them at all and some, if you are buying a new gun will take them in part exchange at a price that is strangely similar to the discount you would otherwise have got.

Which means many old guns are sadly going to the great furnace in the sky. Which is good if you want one.

The main thing though isn’t necessarily looking for particular makes, but condition. Get a nice one that’s mechanically sound with good barrels and you’ll be good to go.

 

[Smellydog]

So what are people’s favourite old SxSs?

Anything that fits!

 

[JTO]

@harrygrey382, has it got to be hammerless?

 

[Ratel]

Anything that fits!

This one does Smelly.