Alba Crown Halal Scottish Venison

[VSS]

Yes - that would be great
Thanks

First and foremost, anyone who advocates chest shooting deer can have no moral objection to non- stun slaughter.
(Just thought I'd get that in at the beginning )

Halal slaughter is very much concerned with the health and welfare of the animal at the time of death, and this is where the stunning controversy rears it's head. Basically, if an animal is unconscious, how can you tell if it's healthy? It might, in fact, be dying from the effects of the pre-slaughter stun, in which case it wouldn't be properly alive and healthy at the time of slaughter. Hence why pre-slaughter stunning is controversial in the production of Halal meat.
There is one simple solution, and that is to use a recoverable stun. In other words, if the unconscious animal were, for some reason, not to be slaughtered, it would recover consciousness naturally and return to full health. That would be acceptable.
The type of stun used in UK abattoirs mostly is recoverable, theoretically, but our government will not allow this to be demonstrated. All it would take would be for a demonstration of the recoverable stun to be shown to the Muslim Council of Great Britain (or whoever their top brass are in the UK), and then pre-slaughter stunning would, in most cases, be acceptable for Halal.

 

[jall55]

First and foremost, anyone who advocates chest shooting deer can have no moral objection to non- stun slaughter.
(Just thought I'd get that in at the beginning )

Halal slaughter is very much concerned with the health and welfare of the animal at the time of death, and this is where the stunning controversy rears it's head. Basically, if an animal is unconscious, how can you tell if it's healthy? It might, in fact, be dying from the effects of the pre-slaughter stun, in which case it wouldn't be properly alive and healthy at the time of slaughter. Hence why pre-slaughter stunning is controversial in the production of Halal meat.
There is one simple solution, and that is to use a recoverable stun. In other words, if the unconscious animal were, for some reason, not to be slaughtered, it would recover consciousness naturally and return to full health. That would be acceptable.
The type of stun used in UK abattoirs mostly is recoverable, theoretically, but our government will not allow this to be demonstrated. All it would take would be for a demonstration of the recoverable stun to be shown to the Muslim Council of Great Britain (or whoever their top brass are in the UK), and then pre-slaughter stunning would, in most cases, be acceptable for Halal.

But is the intention for a chest shot deer to die as quickly as possible - many instantly ? Where non stun slaughter basically sees them bleed out - or am i wrong in this ?

 

[VSS]

But is the intention for a chest shot deer to die as quickly as possible - many instantly ? Where non stun slaughter basically sees them bleed out - or am i wrong in this ?

It is always the intention for things to die as quickly as possible.
I don’t have the data to hand right now, but I should think the time to death of a chest shot deer and an animal killed in a Halal abattoir using a non-stun method are about equal.

 

[Rake Aboot]

So all venison outwith farm/park is halal

Well as far as my Muslim neighbours were concerned , yes

They were sensible folk that would hate wasted food mind

 

[jall55]

It is always the intention for things to die as quickly as possible.
I don’t have the data to hand right now, but I should think the time to death of a chest shot deer and an animal killed in a Halal abattoir using a non-stun method are about equal.

Interesting

I suppose a chest shot deer dies as quickly as possible and suffers as little as possible - whereas a non stun slaughtered farm animal could have a less stressful and painful death ?

 

[Heym SR20]

But is the intention for a chest shot deer to die as quickly as possible - many instantly ? Where non stun slaughter basically sees them bleed out - or am i wrong in this ?

I used to live in Africa and plenty of livestock slaughtered with a sharp knife. The animal is calm and no stress, sharp knife into the neck and cut outwards, flow of blood to brain is immediately cut, looses consciousness very quickly and death soon after. Probably quicker than most chest shot venison.

I have been inside large abattoirs a couple of times in my life. The animals absolutely know what is going. I also remember when we had small local abattoirs and they were so so much better with much less transport.

All the good books provide guidance on good, what is safe, what is not. And fundamentally a sick animal is not a good thing to eat, nor is a dead have rotten animal. In hot climates Pigs are full of nasty worms etc ad their meat goes off very quickly. Hence the reason they are not eaten in many warmer climates and in the UK climate would only be killed if there is an “R” in the month.

With religious killing, if the animal is stressed or suffers such then it cannot be treated as “halal” or “kosher”. In normal abattoirs who knows??

 

[jall55]

I used to live in Africa and plenty of livestock slaughtered with a sharp knife. The animal is calm and no stress, sharp knife into the neck and cut outwards, flow of blood to brain is immediately cut, looses consciousness very quickly and death soon after. Probably quicker than most chest shot venison.

I have been inside large abattoirs a couple of times in my life. The animals absolutely know what is going. I also remember when we had small local abattoirs and they were so so much better with much less transport.

All the good books provide guidance on good, what is safe, what is not. And fundamentally a sick animal is not a good thing to eat, nor is a dead have rotten animal. In hot climates Pigs are full of nasty worms etc ad their meat goes off very quickly. Hence the reason they are not eaten in many warmer climates and in the UK climate would only be killed if there is an “R” in the month.

With religious killing, if the animal is stressed or suffers such then it cannot be treated as “halal” or “kosher”. In normal abattoirs who knows??

Thank you - very interesting

 

[Heym SR20]

Thank you - very interesting

Reason for death by bleeding is that blood remaining in the meat makes it go off very quickly. And stress gives rise to adrenaline, which again, especially in pigs, makes it go off, but more importantly makes it tough to eat. One of the good reasons not to shoot stags in the height of the rut as they are full of adrenaline and testosterone.

 

[eldon]

Reason for death by bleeding is that blood remaining in the meat makes it go off very quickly. And stress gives rise to adrenaline, which again, especially in pigs, makes it go off, but more importantly makes it tough to eat. One of the good reasons not to shoot stags in the height of the rut as they are full of adrenaline and testosterone.

My ex father in law when eating tender pork, used to always say, " well that pig died happy!"

Your post explains his comment well.

 

[gixer1]

A deer shot in the chest - providing placement is correct on the heart or on a hilar shot would be far faster than an arterial bleed - the heart/hilar shot isn’t just punching a hole - it’s knocking out the autonomic and arterial system.

Having seen halal slaughter first hand in countries that practice it more openly (Middle East) my opinion is that it is barbaric, the animals I have seen usual stumble about with a heavy bleed, yes, they bleed out but that’s not always that fast.

Of course there is the argument that deer don’t always drop immediately - and that’s correct, but the “ideal” shot, they do, and that’s what we strive to do.

It’s a similar vein to all the other dross at the minute, we seem to pander and not say much just in case we upset certain demographics…

If you search “is halal humane” you will find all manner of positive articles, usually posted by groups such as “the 5 pillars” or some such bias view.

I agree with the halal side that says animals should live in good conditions although the conditions from what I have seen are not what I would consider “good”….

A stunned animal should be unaware of anything that is going on, and captive bolts should also sever any consciousness immediately.

My opinion having seen both sides.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[gixer1]

Reason for death by bleeding is that blood remaining in the meat makes it go off very quickly. And stress gives rise to adrenaline, which again, especially in pigs, makes it go off, but more importantly makes it tough to eat. One of the good reasons not to shoot stags in the height of the rut as they are full of adrenaline and testosterone.

You think having your throat cut wouldn’t induce adrenaline flow? I suspect it absolutely would! In fact I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t significantly higher than in stunned slaughter.

 

[Ratel]

Halal requires the animal to be healthy at the time of death (so the pre-shot assessment that all stalkers make before pulling the trigger ticks that box), must die by bleeding (chest shot ticks that box), and must be killed by a "man of the book", in other words a practicing religious person. (@Ratel could do it. He goes to church regularly I believe. That's about all it takes).
If there are any words that need to be muttered, I do not know them.

Halal slaughter, done properly, is very high welfare. But there are a lot of misconceptions floating about.

Thank you for the mention Tim. Some years ago a friend sold his slaughter house and butcher business to a Muslim.They asked him to keep doing the slaughtering but using their prayers. He killed sheep by the age old way of pulling the head back and cutting the throat as the spine snapped. That sufficed.
Cattle he shot and cut their throat immediately whilst saying the words.
However you won't find me doing any stock that way but there are some ........

 

[slider]

Interesting

I suppose a chest shot deer dies as quickly as possible and suffers as little as possible - whereas a non stun slaughtered farm animal could have a less stressful and painful death ?

many a chest shot deer will run 10, 20, 25 meters, Sika have been known to run 100. A non stun slaughtered animal will like die quicker than that.

 

[BenBhoy]

First and foremost, anyone who advocates chest shooting deer can have no moral objection to non- stun slaughter.
(Just thought I'd get that in at the beginning )

Halal slaughter is very much concerned with the health and welfare of the animal at the time of death, and this is where the stunning controversy rears it's head. Basically, if an animal is unconscious, how can you tell if it's healthy? It might, in fact, be dying from the effects of the pre-slaughter stun, in which case it wouldn't be properly alive and healthy at the time of slaughter. Hence why pre-slaughter stunning is controversial in the production of Halal meat.
There is one simple solution, and that is to use a recoverable stun. In other words, if the unconscious animal were, for some reason, not to be slaughtered, it would recover consciousness naturally and return to full health. That would be acceptable.
The type of stun used in UK abattoirs mostly is recoverable, theoretically, but our government will not allow this to be demonstrated. All it would take would be for a demonstration of the recoverable stun to be shown to the Muslim Council of Great Britain (or whoever their top brass are in the UK), and then pre-slaughter stunning would, in most cases, be acceptable for Halal.

I'm pretty sure last time I something like 90% uk halal is stunned. If it's HMC then it's non stunned.

Think all kosher is non stun.

 

[WW.]

The key thing for welfare at time of slaughter is not necessarily time to death but time to loss of consciousness. They important is for animals to not suffer, or to suffer as little as possible.

When shooting a wild animal, one is taking the most humane option given the constraints of the animal being wild.

Halal slaughter allows for reversible stunning. When discussing halal slaughter for farmed stock, it is clear that using reversible stunning means there will be less suffering than without stunning. Choosing not to stun in this situation, when there is an option to do otherwise, is a barbaric choice from an ethical perspective.

Shechita slaughter (to produce Kosher meat) does not allow any form of stunning. I personally take issue with the current interpretation of the verses of Mosaic Law this is based on but that is slightly moot here. It ends up falling in a similar box to stalking, being that this is the most humane option (or only one) given the constraints (unless the rabbis will heed a random Christian, which I doubt). It is still less humane than stunned Halal slaughter but, if all faiths are considered equal, ethically does not have the same issues as opting for non-stun Halal slaughter where the option for stunning is available.

The above is allowing equal weight to the different faiths and not factoring in discussion of the validity, or lack of validity, one such as myself may consider different religious beliefs to hold.

 

[jimmer.13]

So basically religious freedom allows unnecessary suffering of domestic animals in the 21st century. Quite shocking really

 

[BenBhoy]

Interesting

I suppose a chest shot deer dies as quickly as possible and suffers as little as possible - whereas a non stun slaughtered farm animal could have a less stressful and painful death ?

But neither animal is aware of thst fact.

ethically does not have the same issues as opting for non-stun Halal slaughter where the option for stunning is available.

Equally unacceptable imo. The animal doesn't care much about the ethics of religion.

 

[Hambone]

I'm pretty sure last time I something like 90% uk halal is stunned. If it's HMC then it's non stunned.

Think all kosher is non stun.

I think the UK should be 100% stun. If I had to pick someone on the forum to point out the kosher bit it would be you,

 

[jall55]

But neither animal is aware of thst fact.

Equally unacceptable imo. The animal doesn't care much about the ethics of religion.

Thats true mate - but just because the animal does not know should not make that the go to or acceptable route ?

 

[BenBhoy]

If I had to pick someone on the forum to point out the kosher bit it would be you

Ah of course silly me - don't mention facts as thst clearly means im antisemitic