Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse

[CAVHUNT]

Down here we lost the argument for retaining lead shot in our shotguns. As a consequent anecdotal advice is that wounding rates on birds has increased due to the move to steel shot.

Monometal bullets [aka copper] vs lead. Our government was going down this path too but we fought against this and won the battle. The government dropped its plans for compulsory use of non lead bullets. Basically due to our argument of the higher wounding rates from Monometal bullets in non magnum rifles. Our state government also employs contract shooters but had not voluntarily set an example by causing its contractors to use lead free bullets so their credibility was challenged.

 

[Woodenbeam]

Plenty of people do get to a good age. But plenty of people don’t. And there is plenty of evidence that lead is really very harmful and reduces your chances of getting to a good age. There is growing body of evidence that links lead pollution to heart disease, lung disease, cancers, dementia and inability to fight off infectious disease. If you think going to die well before your time, its likely to be any of the above it you don’t die through severe trauma.

And whilst you might want to continue to use lead, the lead you shoot out of your gun goes into the wider environment where it will affect others. So why should others die early just so you can continue polluting the environment with you lead bullets?

What is your gripe with those who use lead?
Do you have a monetary interest?
Are you manufacturing lead free bullets?
I almost admire your passion about going lead free apart from the fact you are trying to impose something onto me that I really don’t want & feel no need to have.
The waters have been muddied regarding lead in ammunition I feel since BASC in their ivory tower lead by Mark Avery’s mate sold us down the river.
A nod in the right direction would have been to phase out plastic wads but no an ill thought out statement about voluntary transition away from lead really threw the spanner in the works.

If lead in shotgun shells could really satisfactorily be replaced then why hasn’t the commercial shooting sector lead the way? I did see a shoot on Field Sports Britain that had and I applaud that, good on em. If that’s what floats your boat hats off to you, you have a choice. Buts that’s a choice & not imposed. If all had this attitude and made it work then market force dictates and we have a move in the right (??? Please see footnote) direction. Lead free game meat on all the supermarket shelves which can then sort of justify putting down thousands of birds to then slaughter………..
Or by all these people adopting a lead free shell in a mass sort of voluntary trial shortcomings would very quickly be found and either worked or scrapped. (and the round wheel as opposed to the square one would be back in favour)

I say the waters have been muddied because I do feel when the British Anti Shooting Comedians made their statement lead bullets hadn’t really been thought about & this is just overspill. I mean come off it, let’s have some common sense. In fact it’s so bloody stupid I’m not even wasting keyboard strokes to justify why I feel the need to kick back against lead free bullet heads.

My footnote………..
I am of the age where everyone used to drive around in petrol cars & commercial vehicles were diesel. Then there was the huge push, goverment & industry lead, for everyone to switch over to diesel vehicles - at least that steer was beneficial to the users, more miles per gallon, lower costs etc
Now we find diesel wasn’t the silver bullet promised.
An example of the goverment screwing that one up and their meddling with lead/lead free reminds me of this - they don’t always know best.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

As I’ve said before, I’m happy to use either copper or lead, all the same to me!

What I disagree with is being told what I can and what I cannot do and those holier than thou preaching to me about the toxic value of lead when copper is exactly the same.

So for my own personal consumption and to supply at the Game Dealer for as long as they allow it, I will use lead and to those who say different.

Once the ban,IF the band comes into effect I will continue for as long as I have stock, copper will go to the dealer IF the rules change and lead for my own personal consumption.

Like I said previously also prove to me that a person has died of lead lead poison poisoning from shot game and deer?

You’ll be a long while looking

 

[NoIDeer]

Question to google - how many people in the uk have been confirmed as poisoned by eating lead shot game?

Edited response removing most of the usual theoretical risk statements -

AI Overview
There have been no known or a very low number of clinically confirmed cases of human lead poisoning in the UK specifically attributed to eating lead-shot game. This is primarily because health effects from low-level lead exposure are often sub-clinical, making direct attribution difficult, and surveillance systems tend to record acute, high-level exposures.

___________

Whilst AI and Google are fallible they read an awful lot of stuff before responding.

"No known or a very low number of clinically confirmed cases"
30,000 odd thousand members on here, not one has put their hand up and declared that they have a problem with lead poisoning.

Not feeding my pregnant daughter or the younger grandkids game due to the theoretical risk is as far as I am going.
Ban lead from food going in to the food chain if it makes people feel better but give us a choice.

There are too many theories running the show at the moment we need to get back to being guided by the evidence.

 

[Apthorpe]

Up here in Scotland we are unable to use muzzleloaders as none meet the minimum muzzle velocity requirements.

What are the minimum velocity requirements to shoot fox, squirrel, rats, pigeon, partridge and pheasant respectively?

If you look, there are plenty of options for muzzleloaders with non toxic bullets. Perhaps not readily available in the UK, but not beyond the whit of man and a lathe and a length of copper rod.

 

[Smellydog]

Another over looked aspect by the anti lead zealots is the fact that no ancient civilization used lead for cutting tools.
They did however use copper as cutting tools.
Hence I would prefer a lead shard with an edge to pass through my gut than any shard of copper!
The day is fast approaching when damaged inflamed gut is diagnosed due to a shard of copper and any lawyer worth his **** will be advising his Waitrose client to steer well clear of game shot with copper.


I really can not believe I'm attempting to reason with absolute idiots. I should know better. One can not win an argument with leftie idiots.

 

[MilesW]

Plenty of people do get to a good age. But plenty of people don’t. And there is plenty of evidence that lead is really very harmful and reduces your chances of getting to a good age. There is growing body of evidence that links lead pollution to heart disease, lung disease, cancers, dementia and inability to fight off infectious disease. If you think going to die well before your time, its likely to be any of the above it you don’t die through severe trauma.

And whilst you might want to continue to use lead, the lead you shoot out of your gun goes into the wider environment where it will affect others. So why should others die early just so you can continue polluting the environment with you lead bullets?

I doubt anyone is going to dispute that lead is really very harmful. But there is zero evidence that the the occasional consumption of venison shot with lead cored bullets is material. The lead introduced into the environment from Centrefire lead bullets shot at game is miniscule compared to the lead already in the environment and lost to the environment each year from other sources. Perhaps your zeal would be better directed to removing or mitigating the risk of the several million tons of lead sloshing around the UK environment now.
Lead shot is a different beast and in my opinion a phase down, but not necessarily a total phaseout, is a worthwhile pursuit.
And "monolithic copper bullets work well" as a generalization is not supported by majority experience. They are a poor compromise. Shooters, of all disciplines, are fanatical (almost rabid) in their pursuit of accuracy and terminal performance and if copper was the answer we would have been shooting it exclusively years ago. Hang the expense.

 

[Freeforester]

As I’ve said before, I’m happy to use either copper or lead, all the same to me!

What I disagree with is being told what I can and what I cannot do and those holier than thou preaching to me about the toxic value of lead when copper is exactly the same.

So for my own personal consumption and to supply at the Game Dealer for as long as they allow it, I will use lead and to those who say different.

Once the ban,IF the band comes into effect I will continue for as long as I have stock, copper will go to the dealer IF the rules change and lead for my own personal consumption.

Like I said previously also prove to me that a person has died of lead lead poison poisoning from shot game and deer?

You’ll be a long while looking

I don’t think the researchers are capable of safely butchering deer for their own consumption — if they do I definitely wouldn’t want to be at their dining table.
It’s that perennial intelligence:common sense dichotomy.

 

[Apthorpe]

Plenty of people do get to a good age. But plenty of people don’t. And there is plenty of evidence that lead is really very harmful and reduces your chances of getting to a good age. There is growing body of evidence that links lead pollution to heart disease, lung disease, cancers, dementia and inability to fight off infectious disease. If you think going to die well before your time, its likely to be any of the above it you don’t die through severe trauma.

It might well be any of those, but all instances of those diseases are not caused by the use of lead ammunition. Aside from that, there are many other greater sources of exposure to lead pollution and you haven't given even 1% of the same effort to supporting banning those. Why do you believe that lead exposure from ammunition is so much more toxic than other forms of legal lead exposure, which in fact, really are more toxic? You may protest that you don't believe that, but it is what your actions demonstrate. What is the reason for your persistent delusional stance on this?

And whilst you might want to continue to use lead, the lead you shoot out of your gun goes into the wider environment where it will affect others. So why should others die early just so you can continue polluting the environment with you lead bullets?

That's a massive non sequitur and completely incoherent argument. The lead X fires out of his gun is not going to kill other people early. That is a not a claim that can be scientifically substantiated.

 

[jimmer.13]

What is the reason for your persistent delusional stance on this?

His brain is broken.

 

[Smellydog]

Wouldn't it be ironic if I got prosecuted at my local courts for using lead.

FFS...

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Wouldn't it be ironic if I got prosecuted at my local courts for using lead.
View attachment 444841
FFS...

You’ve got more chance of being hit with a Brussel sprout hitting you between the eyes from a catapult

 

[Dunwaters]

His brain is broken.

He’s not the only one.

 

[Buchan]

Yerp and there's growing evidence that people that Greenwash get ultimately proved wrong


2 facts that have been proven over this whole debate.

1. Gamedealers have fuelled the need to remove lead from game because their main market is in Europe and they require it to be lead free . The ask us stalkers to do more for them but they dont do much for us.

2. There has never been any proof that lead shot or in fact lead core bullets have harmed humans , different types of lead do harm humans though but thats not in bullets . What conservation scientists have found though that lead does harm Carrion birds and in particular Californian Vultures and thats where this all fuelled from.

I actually believe 2 main things about copper.

1. They are in fact inhumane to deer. To get a guaranteed humane kill you have to headshoot and even the bullet companies say you have to do that. So what have they done? Added head shooting to the DSC. Great now you will get 100's of deer running about with no jam.

2. Copper is just as toxic as lead .

Prove me wrong on all accounts.

Start with your last statement - needed for a variety of enzymes in animals, copper deficiency is recognised in cattle and sheep. Copper toxicity is also reported, especially in sheep, so supplements have to be done with care. Lead has no role in any living organism. It is toxic, and cumulative, with no known safe level.

Copper inhumane - this is untrue as many people will confirm.

Lead ammunition is harmful - see the case I posted. The type of lead in ammunition compared to other sources differs only by being different isotopes - the only difference is the number of neutrons in the nucleus, the chemical properties are unaffected by this. Lead levels of game eaters have been shown to be higher - several studies (just google scholar it). Add to this the impact on raptors, and it is obvious why it is felt reasonable to ban it.


By all means believe that the lead issue is an attack on shooting, I can understand that, but to deny that lead is poisonous and that fragments in meat do not represent a route by which we can ingest lead is not logical.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Can you show me a study that gives conclusive proof eating lead shot game causes illness in humans ? I believe I’ve asked for this before

The answer will be the same...why? Because there is none. Although there is plenty of evidence to show that non lead ammunition does not kill as well, especially with longer shots to tge body. In my simple world that is inhumane. So can we look forward to hearing some jackanape from one of the Government controlled shooting representative bodies, advocating a cessation of deer control on the grounds of cruelty? Surely, so high minded are these goons, they ought to.
Bows and arrows and snares....'tis the only way lads!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

The answer will be the same...why? Because there is none. Although there is plenty of evidence to show that non lead ammunition does not kill as well, especially with longer shots to tge body. In my simple world that is inhumane. So can we look forward to hearing some jackanape from one of the Government controlled shooting representative bodies, advocating a cessation of deer control on the grounds of cruelty? Surely, so high minded are these goons, they ought to.
Bows and arrows and snares....'tis the only way lads!

I won’t have the copper is inhumane, the way they’re loaded is inhumane because 95% of them are going too fast and they’re too light, because the modern day stalker is too bone Idol to work his bullet drops out!

If you use a heavier bullet and slow it down, it still works absolutely fine

 

[Apthorpe]

Start with your last statement - needed for a variety of enzymes in animals, copper deficiency is recognised in cattle and sheep. Copper toxicity is also reported, especially in sheep, so supplements have to be done with care. Lead has no role in any living organism. It is toxic, and cumulative, with no known safe level.

The phrase "no known safe level" has a particular meaning which does not mean that you must take action to avoid all exposure. For example, there is a strong case that there is no known safe level of air to breathe, owing to air pollution. Are we to ban breathing untreated air, and use purified bottled air? Consider that the number of deaths attributed to air pollution is orders of magnitude higher than those attributed to lead, and of course infinitely higher than those attributed to eating lead-shot game.

Copper inhumane - this is untrue as many people will confirm.

Lead ammunition is harmful - see the case I posted. The type of lead in ammunition compared to other sources differs only by being different isotopes - the only difference is the number of neutrons in the nucleus, the chemical properties are unaffected by this.

I'm afraid I really have to pick you up on this very silly claim. You certainly know better than this. Lead ammunition is not made with different isotopes - that's a ridiculous thing to say. Wjicj isotopes/how/why? The point you are addressing/missing from Tulloch's comment is that metallic lead is very much less toxic than lead compounds where the lead is ionic or organolead compounds like tetraethyl lead. The chemical properties are very different. For the sake of anyone who didn't have a scientific education, could you reflect on this and confirm what is correct?

Lead levels of game eaters have been shown to be higher - several studies (just google scholar it). Add to this the impact on raptors, and it is obvious why it is felt reasonable to ban it.


By all means believe that the lead issue is an attack on shooting, I can understand that, but to deny that lead is poisonous and that fragments in meat do not represent a route by which we can ingest lead is not logical.

Nobody denies lead is poisonous. Fragments in meat do represent a route by which we CAN ingest lead but that still amounts to lower levels of exposure than dozens of other foods. You would have a limited point if we were also banning all those other foods at the same time and other more harmful chemicals. It is blondongly obvious this is an attack on shooting because it is being pursued when greater harms are not, even in use cases where there is no possibility of even minute levels of ingestion.

 

[Woodenbeam]

Start with your last statement - needed for a variety of enzymes in animals, copper deficiency is recognised in cattle and sheep. Copper toxicity is also reported, especially in sheep, so supplements have to be done with care. Lead has no role in any living organism. It is toxic, and cumulative, with no known safe level.

Copper inhumane - this is untrue as many people will confirm.

Lead ammunition is harmful - see the case I posted. The type of lead in ammunition compared to other sources differs only by being different isotopes - the only difference is the number of neutrons in the nucleus, the chemical properties are unaffected by this. Lead levels of game eaters have been shown to be higher - several studies (just google scholar it). Add to this the impact on raptors, and it is obvious why it is felt reasonable to ban it.


By all means believe that the lead issue is an attack on shooting, I can understand that, but to deny that lead is poisonous and that fragments in meat do not represent a route by which we can ingest lead is not logical.

I’m never going to dispute the fact lead is toxic.
That said I keep reading ‘There is no safe level of lead’.
You acknowledge the fact lead levels are higher in game eaters in your statement………well unless these game eaters are dead then I would say there has to be a tolerance and so the ‘No safe level’ is a typical lefty wokey anti shooting extreme scare message to influence.

As for the impact on raptors, well the amount of buzzards, kites and even white tailed sea eagles in East Anglian is astonishing. Considering all the commercial game shoots in the area & all that highly toxic lead flying through the air it defies logic that these species are flourishing.
A staple part of their diet has to be either wounded/un-picked birds or those that are slowly dying due to the copious amounts of lead eaten when mistaking No.6 lead shot for a tasty morsel. We’ve a fair few deer around also so I’ll throw into the mix highly dangerous lead contaminated gralloch littering the countryside.

Unfortunately logic doesn’t seem to come into the equation when discussing lead in shooting - if it did I wouldn’t be sat here now typing.

 

[GlennUK]

Another over looked aspect by the anti lead zealots is the fact that no ancient civilization used lead for cutting tools.
They did however use copper as cutting tools.
Hence I would prefer a lead shard with an edge to pass through my gut than any shard of copper!
The day is fast approaching when damaged inflamed gut is diagnosed due to a shard of copper and any lawyer worth his **** will be advising his Waitrose client to steer well clear of game shot with copper.


I really can not believe I'm attempting to reason with absolute idiots. I should know better. One can not win an argument with leftie idiots.

Its somewhat ironic talking about trying to argue with idiots.

If you understand that the scientific literature indicates that lead is harmful and a cumulative poison, then it is somewhat odd, counter intuitive to suggest that adding lead to your diet in any form does no harm.

If you have evidence that lead is either beneficial or benign to human health by all means post it.

Assuming that no one is arguing that lead has beneficial effects (pauses for a shout from the back!!) the only reasonable question is whether ingesting it is likely on balance to be good or bad for your health, whatever its source.

The anecdotal stories about no harm being done are just that, stories. Anecdotes may be helpful in pointing one where to look but of themselves are not evidence, at least in any scientific sense.

Saying x has eaten lead shot game for years and has not been harmed is not evidence of the effects (or lack of effects) of lead consumed in this, or any other way. About the only thing one case say about x is they are alive and appear in good health or not as the case may be.

The fact you may not notice the impact because its effects are not obvious to you, does not mean that those effects are not there.

As for those who say copper is ineffective, I would argue that hitting your quarry in the right spot will always be effective.

Hitting the wrong spot whether with lead or copper, is always likely to lead to a longer death, if at all.

 

[GlennUK]

The answer will be the same...why? Because there is none. Although there is plenty of evidence to show that non lead ammunition does not kill as well, especially with longer shots to tge body. In my simple world that is inhumane. So can we look forward to hearing some jackanape from one of the Government controlled shooting representative bodies, advocating a cessation of deer control on the grounds of cruelty? Surely, so high minded are these goons, they ought to.
Bows and arrows and snares....'tis the only way lads!

If a bullet penetrates the chest cavity and hits the heart/lungs does it matter if it is made from lead or copper from the animals perspective?

I'm curious as I have only shot deer at relatively close quarters with copper and it seems pretty devastating when put in the right spot, I'm trying to workout why if the bullet hits the actual target (i.e. the HL as opposed to just hitting the animal) that the damage to the vial organs/arteries will not result in a clean kill.

Is there a reason why at 'long distances' a copper bullet hitting the animal in the right spot would not result in such damage?