I think heās ok with people shooting and stalking but only his ā way ā if they disagree he thinks they shouldnāt hold an facAre you an anti? You seem to argue like one and have many other similarities to them? You seem to want shooting to go down the pan like them?
Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse
- Thread starter Heym SR20
- Start date
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
I have until fairly recently worked in ammunition manufacture and testing for a number of years. Developing both lead core and non lead ammunition for hunting as well as other applications.
During this time I have a large amount of experience testing a variety of bullets at different ranges on ballistics gel and in the field.
Some of us do have an amount of experience and expertise in this field. You on the other hand do not.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
55 and buggered? Planning a lifestyle change??In 10 years Iāll be 55 and buggered!
Time to become a proper lazy bum carp angler
Plus Iāve got an ambition to catch wild carp from the northern Swedish rivers
Iām 51 and seriously hope that I havenāt got 4 years of stalking left in me!!
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
People have asked if I am an Anti.
Yes I am. I am very much anti those who just like to leave their litter and pollution and just to use our little planet for their own ends and sod the rest of us. As regards lead, it is a toxic substance that is no good to any organism and where good alternatives are available they should be used. I take exactly the same view with plastic pollution, or our water companies finding it cheaper to pay the fines for dumping sewerage into our river than investing in updated infrastructure.
I am very much pro shooting, fishing and hunting on a sustainable basis. It is a way that we can keep our few remaining pockets of wild land, indeed its a way that we can expand those areas of wild lands, yet they are still of value. I have absolutely no issue with hunting and fishing for recreation, indeed I actively encourage friends and family to participate. But it needs to be done in an ethical manner with a big regard of what happens in the future. Make sure you have healthy woodland, farmland as well as wildlife all in a good long term sustainable balance.
And I have absolutely no issue with individuals paying big sums of money to shoot old trophy animals that are well beyond breeding age, or indeed putting money into commercial driven shooting etc. Most of that money ends up funding the maintenance of estates, wild lands and provides those that are actually doing the hard work on the ground to earn a living.
But I am anti many who take the view that deer should just be treated as vermin and just exterminated. That view was taken on predators and raptors in the Victorian era, and in most of our colonies game populations were wiped out to make way for domestic cattle and sheep.
In most other parts of the world, people have realised that actually indigenous animals work a lot better and are adapted to the local environment. In Africa many former catte ranches are now doing very better having returned to bushveld with a wide selection of different animal species. The volume of meat produced per ha is higher than cattle ranching systems, and this goes to feeding people. Meanwhile a few trophy animals are sold off to provide additional income.
In Scotland we now have the ridiculous situation where institutions (mostly foreign) are buying up large tracts of land to offset their carbon and are receiving grant funding paid by all of us tax payers to put up fences, shoot all the deer and plant trees, or are planting windmills.
Yes I am. I am very much anti those who just like to leave their litter and pollution and just to use our little planet for their own ends and sod the rest of us. As regards lead, it is a toxic substance that is no good to any organism and where good alternatives are available they should be used. I take exactly the same view with plastic pollution, or our water companies finding it cheaper to pay the fines for dumping sewerage into our river than investing in updated infrastructure.
I am very much pro shooting, fishing and hunting on a sustainable basis. It is a way that we can keep our few remaining pockets of wild land, indeed its a way that we can expand those areas of wild lands, yet they are still of value. I have absolutely no issue with hunting and fishing for recreation, indeed I actively encourage friends and family to participate. But it needs to be done in an ethical manner with a big regard of what happens in the future. Make sure you have healthy woodland, farmland as well as wildlife all in a good long term sustainable balance.
And I have absolutely no issue with individuals paying big sums of money to shoot old trophy animals that are well beyond breeding age, or indeed putting money into commercial driven shooting etc. Most of that money ends up funding the maintenance of estates, wild lands and provides those that are actually doing the hard work on the ground to earn a living.
But I am anti many who take the view that deer should just be treated as vermin and just exterminated. That view was taken on predators and raptors in the Victorian era, and in most of our colonies game populations were wiped out to make way for domestic cattle and sheep.
In most other parts of the world, people have realised that actually indigenous animals work a lot better and are adapted to the local environment. In Africa many former catte ranches are now doing very better having returned to bushveld with a wide selection of different animal species. The volume of meat produced per ha is higher than cattle ranching systems, and this goes to feeding people. Meanwhile a few trophy animals are sold off to provide additional income.
In Scotland we now have the ridiculous situation where institutions (mostly foreign) are buying up large tracts of land to offset their carbon and are receiving grant funding paid by all of us tax payers to put up fences, shoot all the deer and plant trees, or are planting windmills.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
As far as I can see, the topic of non toxic ammunition is a bit like the one for electric cars vs ice.
Early models are flawed but gain some enthusiasts. Real world results suggest life isnāt quite as perfect as the adverts suggest and reports of odd behaviour and results can be found everywhere.
But, the trickle turns into a flow and more manufacturers come on line with different models, designs and capabilities and the progress goes on a huge growth curve.
Despite this, some feel more comfortable where they are and keep using what they have been because itās a known quantity.
However, slowly but surely the performance gap between old and new narrows, technology improves as does design through experience and, before you know it, everyone has switched and is happy.
We are in that middle phase of adoption, I think.
I have started using monolithic bullets in my 308 but still use lead in my 243 and swede, because they are my main rifles and I want consistency.
I have enough bullets to see me through the next two seasons at least but will transition to copper after that.
I just want the wrinkles in performance to be ironed out before making the final leap.
Early models are flawed but gain some enthusiasts. Real world results suggest life isnāt quite as perfect as the adverts suggest and reports of odd behaviour and results can be found everywhere.
But, the trickle turns into a flow and more manufacturers come on line with different models, designs and capabilities and the progress goes on a huge growth curve.
Despite this, some feel more comfortable where they are and keep using what they have been because itās a known quantity.
However, slowly but surely the performance gap between old and new narrows, technology improves as does design through experience and, before you know it, everyone has switched and is happy.
We are in that middle phase of adoption, I think.
I have started using monolithic bullets in my 308 but still use lead in my 243 and swede, because they are my main rifles and I want consistency.
I have enough bullets to see me through the next two seasons at least but will transition to copper after that.
I just want the wrinkles in performance to be ironed out before making the final leap.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Like you I can use both and luckily POA is exactly the same so I donāt even have to change zero which is a bonus.
I have no problem with people and what flavour bullets people want to use, itās the principle and loss of being able to choose.
Year again another copper/lead debate going around in circles and going nowhere
That's kind of you to confirm, and i have not argued with your comments I have asked and you have provided clarity.
And FWIW i wasnt thinkng about you/your comments when i was referring to self-proclaimed experts, i must have pulled that shot by some margin im afraid, so apologies if i gave the incorrect impression.
This thread is alas internet noise as the HSE have made their recommendations.
I admire the tenacity of those who argue on this topic, has it changes the opinion of a single fellow member?
What these threads have produced is a series of links to papers on lead, they might be useful as we lobby our MPs, if any of the protagonists on SD actually take that step?
The HSE are proposing exempting airguns thatās a start, target shooting with rifles might be OK, with shotguns alas no.
22 C/F rifles perhaps even the 243 probably have a very weak case to carry on using lead.
Muzzle loaders, perhaps no other option than lead.
I admire the tenacity of those who argue on this topic, has it changes the opinion of a single fellow member?
What these threads have produced is a series of links to papers on lead, they might be useful as we lobby our MPs, if any of the protagonists on SD actually take that step?
The HSE are proposing exempting airguns thatās a start, target shooting with rifles might be OK, with shotguns alas no.
22 C/F rifles perhaps even the 243 probably have a very weak case to carry on using lead.
Muzzle loaders, perhaps no other option than lead.
Fixed it for you
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
Most if not all of these nonsenses - the carbon offsetting being wholly unnecessary and yet, coincidentally being deemed as necessary by the Scottish Government and its institutions.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
Can be the only explanation...I thought he was C'OG's ghost profile for a long timeAre you an anti? You seem to argue like one and have many other similarities to them? You seem to want shooting to go down the pan like them?
Especially when making veiled threats / passive aggressive stuff about suitability of those with strong opinions stoutly expressed in contradiction to his own views, to be regarded as responsible to hold firearms (comments passim). As with so many you encounter these days, it seems their preference is to drown out reasoned debate with threats and aggression. There can be no argument but their own. Pretty low grade stuff really, especially on a forum where debate and exchange of knowledge -forthright or otherwise- is the whole point.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
So, what do you do with your household waste?
How do you avoid single use plastics?
Take them bloody left wing rose coloured spectacles off with added blinkers?
Freeforester Q "...institutions (mostly foreign) are buying up large tracts of land to offset their carbon and are receiving grant funding paid by all of us tax payers to put up fences, shoot all the deer and plant trees, or are planting windmills. ". UQ
Speer Chucker Q "...it seems their preference is to drown out reasoned debate with threats and aggression." UQ
Yes..and .it's not confined to the UK. Our opposition here down under is doing the same thing. They are organized, vocal, persistent and loud while we sit back quietly shaking our conservative heads.
In time history will judge this time in the chronicles of the early 21st century as being - The Age Of The Great Con.
Speer Chucker Q "...it seems their preference is to drown out reasoned debate with threats and aggression." UQ
Yes..and .it's not confined to the UK. Our opposition here down under is doing the same thing. They are organized, vocal, persistent and loud while we sit back quietly shaking our conservative heads.
In time history will judge this time in the chronicles of the early 21st century as being - The Age Of The Great Con.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
There is more plastic waste going into landfill then there is ever going to be pollution by using lead for shooting Deer game thatās my last word on this ball ache of a subject going round and round and round in circles, Iāll now **** off and look for something better to do than read this ****
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I honestly think not much will come of it. Certainly won't be policed.This has been going on for so long, there must be a later, latest article on this published by now!!!!As you might have gathered, bit boring and circular now.
David.
The world events dictate terms. Not leftie rose coloured spectacles.
The facts are the world needs lead.
There is a big drive to up munitions production. That requires lead.
End of discussion and the end of wishful, spiteful dreams held by the mamby pamby left that would like us all to surrender our freedom of choice while they themselves continue to have a freedom of choice!
tackb
Well-Known Member
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Forgot about that been a long day already
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