Guns unbagged before firing point

[k760]

HNY...

Last autumn I went along to an open day for a shooting club. Folk seemed nice enough and it was reasonably well organised. I had a couple of things that are niggling me and thus preventing me from submitting an application to join.

1) rifles were unbagged well behind the firing point, and we're carried to and from it before and after being used. Most had flags in but a few didn't. Add to that, some members were sitting with their rifles at their feet. Some in open bags. Some on a bipod with cover. Others just lying on the ground. There seemed to be guns on show everywhere.

2) the number of people hanging around the shooting lane seemed a lot, maybe 25-30 mixture of randomers and a handful of club members. Add in the number of guns, ammo lying around and being in the 600yrd range at Bisley, the whole thing was somewhat uncomfortable.

I will admit, my current club is red hot on firing point discipline and would never allow guns unbagged before the FP. In fact, we did a Warminster shoot recently and we had a full safety briefing, the RO was great, things were strict and tight. It seemed fully controlled unlike my experience at Bisley.

I don't particularly like being around random people with guns anyway, so experiencing this open day was somewhat nerving for me. The problem is I've moved 2.5 hours from my existing club and whilst I'll be able to shoot there occasionally, I'd really like to keep up the regularity with a more local club, which is proving very difficult owing to very few in my area who do full bore.

My question: am I being too pedantic, overthinking, and unrealistic - do other clubs shoot like this? Or am I right to be cautious and consider their people and gun control on this occasion may not have been up to scratch.

I'm not an expert so I'm not saying how the club should or shouldn't be run. I'm also not suggesting illegality. I'm trying to understand if my expectations are unrealistic!

Many thanks indeed advance.

 

[rocketdogbert]

Every club I’ve ever shot with has guns unbagged behind the firing point at Bisley, every club I’ve ever seen shoot there does the same.
Home ranges can be ultra hot on this, but it appears to be he norm Bisley.

I find it much more unnerving shooting on Short Siberia at 100 with another group shooting at 200 at the same time, same goes for 300/600 at Century and 900/1000 at Stickledown.

Simple answer is, if you’re uncomfortable around those club members, and the clubs organisation, don’t join. It’s that simple

 

[cjm1066]

https://nra.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/nrasss.pdf

But each club/individual makes their own choices. Without visiting myself I can't comment further.

 

[tarponhead]

Every club I’ve ever shot with has guns unbagged behind the firing point at Bisley, every club I’ve ever seen shoot there does the same.
Home ranges can be ultra hot on this, but it appears to be he norm Bisley.

I find it much more unnerving shooting on Short Siberia at 100 with another group shooting at 200 at the same time, same goes for 300/600 at Century and 900/1000 at Stickledown.

Simple answer is, if you’re uncomfortable around those club members, and the clubs organisation, don’t join. It’s that simple

That’s my experience at Bisley. My new club is uber strict and that’s a good thing, but attitudes to safety is a personal thing, so trust your instinct. You could ask the club about their safety record, but it’s a personal choice.

 

[rocketdogbert]

https://nra.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/nrasss.pdf

But each club/individual makes their own choices. Without visiting myself I can't comment further.

That looks like the NRA MOD specific Safe Shooting System, Bisley isn’t an MOD range. But the system for Bisley is similar

 

[webley701]

Every club I’ve ever shot with has guns unbagged behind the firing point at Bisley, every club I’ve ever seen shoot there does the same.
Home ranges can be ultra hot on this, but it appears to be he norm Bisley.

I find it much more unnerving shooting on Short Siberia at 100 with another group shooting at 200 at the same time, same goes for 300/600 at Century and 900/1000 at Stickledown.

Simple answer is, if you’re uncomfortable around those club members, and the clubs organisation, don’t join. It’s that simple

The ‘Echelon’ form of range use - i.e. shooting at two distances on the same range, with adequate lateral separation - has been used very safely at Bisley & other ranges where space permits for (primarily) Fullbore TR & MR shooting since the 1880’s.

 

[rocketdogbert]

The ‘Echelon’ form of range use - i.e. shooting at two distances on the same range, with adequate lateral separation - has been used very safely at Bisley & other ranges where space permits for (primarily) Fullbore TR & MR shooting since the 1880’s.

I know. It still makes me uncomfortable

 

[TringSaint]

I shot st Bisley regularly with a club and the norm was for guns to be out, behind the firing point so long as they had breech flags in. No flag > its in a bag!!

Never had any issues.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Has there ever been a documented injury due to this method at Bisley?

 

[Foxyboy43]

Call me old-fashioned but I share your concern, it only takes one mistake and death or serious injury can and will occur.
RO verbal permission and approval to “unbag” is de rigeur at both my clubs (including for pistols) is only granted when at the firing point of choice. Before and after shooting all firearms must be bagged before leaving the firing point and only after RO permission to “bag” is given and the gun proved safe.
Saying that it never ceases to amaze me when, usually a visitor, unbags with his rifle pointing back at him - Einsteins still walk among us….

 

[Demetrius]

I shoot at Bisley as an individual NRA member.......I shoot prone off a bipod and buttbag, and only remove flag and insert bolt when on aim and ready to fire.
When finished, it's flag in, bolt out, rifle back in bag, firing point checked and fired cases accounted for. (I reload...)
Shooting safely isn't rocket science.

D.

 

[Demetrius]

And I suspect that in common with a lot of hunters, I don't consider the actual shooting to be a social activity.
I find it extremely irritating to be surrounded by other shooters conversing in loud voices when I'm trying to concentrate.
Save that for the pub afterwards.....

D

 

[Heym SR20]

If you are uncomfortable then don’t put in an application. But it may be that a word with secretary or chairman may be worthwhile.

The biggest safety factor is complacency and an observation from an outsider can often be very useful.

Guns covered or uncovered I don’t think matters. What is absolutely key though is where they are pointing.

Frankly ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. A gun in a slip is no more or less dangerous than an uncovered gun, and there should be no difference in where the muzzle is pointed.

At least with an uncovered gun you can easily see that the bolt is removed.

Clubs, like any group of people do very much have their own identity. There is also the tribal thing going on, that my club is better than yours.

So one club will very much suit one type of person, whereas another will suit another type. There is also big difference between military style operations introducing new recruits to firearms (designed to handle young men full of testosterone and not necessarily the sharpest crayons in the box) to a club of elder generation retired professional type people who love target shooting, to a club full of mainly deer stalkers getting together for off season practice.

They all have very different styles and ways of doing things.

 

[ashray]

as stated above ,as long as the breach flag is in place or the bolt is fully removed it is a lump of metal/plastic and perfectly safe. also remember that a lot of club members are also range safety officers and do watch other members like hawks !!

 

[willowbank]

If you are uncomfortable then don’t put in an application. But it may be that a word with secretary or chairman may be worthwhile.

The biggest safety factor is complacency and an observation from an outsider can often be very useful.

Guns covered or uncovered I don’t think matters. What is absolutely key though is where they are pointing.

Frankly ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. A gun in a slip is no more or less dangerous than an uncovered gun, and there should be no difference in where the muzzle is pointed.

At least with an uncovered gun you can easily see that the bolt is removed.

Clubs, like any group of people do very much have their own identity. There is also the tribal thing going on, that my club is better than yours.

So one club will very much suit one type of person, whereas another will suit another type. There is also big difference between military style operations introducing new recruits to firearms (designed to handle young men full of testosterone and not necessarily the sharpest crayons in the box) to a club of elder generation retired professional type people who love target shooting, to a club full of mainly deer stalkers getting together for off season practice.

They all have very different styles and ways of doing things.

Lot of sense there... maybe OP is just a little OTT but to each his own, whatever makes you comfortable.

WB

 

[Bavarianbrit]

"Ready on the left, ready on the right, ready on the firing line" was the way I watched safety being done when I was at Camp Perry in Ohio a few times in the 1980s.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Can never decide which jacket to put it on!

K

 

[Donkey Basher]

“Stupid is as stupid does.”

What do I mean by this? I mean that all too often people follow a process without actually carrying out the actions it entails or understanding the reason they are doing it.

Rules at Bisley are bolt out &/or breach flag in when not on the firing line. Firearms in such condition can be carried to & from the firing line in a muzzle up position.

The exception to this is for gallery rifle disciplines where shooters keep firearms bagged & only unbag on the firing line when instructed to do so. Bagged firearms are considered to be safe despite the fact no-one can see whether the bolt is out or a breach flag is fitted.

A real life example of “Stupid is as stupid does”.

Gallery rifle shooter turns up to non GR event with rifle in bag & places bag on ground behind shooters on firing line. Shooter is then called to shoot so brings the bag up to the firing line & requests permission to unbag, which is given.

Shooter removes a 10/22 with working parts forward, ie bolt forward & hammer cocked, & magazine in place. Shooter then pulls cocking lever back & out pops a live round…

Shooter instructed to remove magazine which on inspection contains another 9 live rounds. Rifle is checked & safety is found to be off. So a ‘safe’ rifle in a bag was actually loaded & being carried without the safety applied.

Shooter had no idea why the rifle was loaded as “it was cleared at my club last time I used it two weeks ago”.

Dissecting the situation, the shooter was so used to doing things ‘parrot fashion’ that when his rifle had been cleared on the firing line & he'd been told to bag it, unseen by the RO who had moved in to clear the next shooter on the line, he put the magazine back in & let the working parts forward. The magazine he’d put in was his ‘spare’ that he kept loaded in case he needed to swap one midway through a course of fire because of feed failures etc. not one of his empty ones.

As far as everyone around him was concerned his rifle was ‘safe’ because it was in a bag. Had it been unbagged he would have had to have the working parts back & he’d have been required to put a breach flag in so all could see it was cleared.

That rifle was then transported to & put into the boot of his car before he drove home. When he got home he removed the bag & took it indoors before removing the rifle & putting it in his cabinet.

Two weeks later he removed the rifle & put it in the bag before putting into the boot of his car & driving to the range where he removed it & placed the bag behind his fellow shooters & pointing directly at them.

OK he should have checked the rifle when taking out of the bag & putting it in the gun cabinet at home but he didn’t because he had been indoctrinated that a bagged rifle is a safe rifle… so too had all the shooters around him.

This happened when I was RO at a club event some years ago & it is why I cringe every time I get a rifle brought to the firing line in a bag.

Just because a firearm is bagged does not make it safe!

Bolt out &/or breach flag in & carry it muzzle upwards.

 

[muddy42]

Sorry if I'm missing something (I'm a stalker not a target shooter) but what's the bag got to do with safety? Surely its easier to see that a flag is in, bolt is removed or pulled back, when a rifle is out of its bag? I take a similar view with shotgun sleeves, strictly I only like people to use them if they are religious about checking the breech before putting them in or removing them, as part of the motion of putting the shotgun in.

 

[Donkey Basher]

Sorry if I'm missing something (I'm a stalker not a target shooter) but what's the bag got to do with safety? Surely its easier to see that a flag is in, bolt is removed or pulled back, when a rifle is out of its bag? I take a similar view with shotgun sleeves, strictly I only like people to use them if they are religious about checking the breech before putting them in or removing them, as part of the motion of putting the shotgun in.

That is exactly the point I am making - putting a firearm in a bag does not make it safe, better to be able to see it is not loaded by way of open/removed bolt &/or a breach flag clearly visible.