OIL.

[Taff]

People here don't switch based on emissions.
Back in the 2010s, people thought it was because of emissions, back then electric cars were also primitive, but since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, there is no longer any secret that we aim to free ourselves from dependence on fossil fuels.

Electricity costs about 10-20% per kilometer compared to combustion.
In addition, the service costs of an electric car are much cheaper than a combustion car.
The electric car only needs to be "checked" every 2-30,000 kilometers.
The brakes last 3 times longer than on a combustion car and so on.
We don't know the lifespan of the new generations of batteries.
But the old generation from 3-4 years ago has been shown to last at least 400,000 kilometers in taxi driving, after which the taxis here are usually scrapped.
3-4 years ago, electric cars only had half the range (in cold even less) of new electric cars.

The electric cars sold today have a range of about 1000 kilometers on a charge. It takes about 15-25 minutes to charge.
Here in Denmark there are many times more charging stations than gas stations.
A charging station is many times cheaper and easier to build and service than a gas station.
If we charge at home during periods of high wind, electricity for electric cars is free.

The price of electricity for cars is purchased in advance from various electricity companies.
This means that you charge from a phone app, and thus you pay directly to the electricity supplier you have an agreement with, at a fixed price per KW, which is independent of where in Europe you charge.

Personally, I still drive diesel, but it will definitely be electric next time.
I have a boat that I pull on a trailer behind my car, and electric cars couldn't really handle that just a few years ago.
In fact, you have to specifically order a fossil car if you want to buy one here.
No dealers get them home anymore, they simply can't be sold.

Electric trucks are so much cheaper to run that they simply can't be obtained quickly enough right now.
They can drive 5-6 hours on a charge. After 4.5 hours, the driver must take a break according to EU regulations, which fits with the charging intervals, so all trucking companies are switching as quickly as they can right now.
However, the price of a 48-ton truck is 1.5 tons less freight, since that weght is used for batteries.

My dad is 85 today.
Around 2020 he said he would NEVER own an electric car, I had similar thoughts.

Now he has one, and will never go back to fossil under any circumstances .


Can clearly see that a country like Germany is behind.
They don't have nearly the same number of charging stations when you get off the motorway. They also still mainly run on fossil fuels.
Now we'll see how it goes if I buy a new electric car.
This year's summer vacation is going by car to southern Germany, where the wife wants to see Schloss Schwangau.

Do you actually believe all you wrote
My research tells me it’s about 240-350 km per charge, and yes we had a electric car, friends of ours have a electric mustang, you cannot get to Auckland and back on a charge, 157k each way, as for trucks 150k city delivery upto 400-600 long haul.
Denmark is like NZ , the government pushed, the electric agenda, not out of science based info but because it owns the producer of electricity, even thought it claims to be independent.
There is no doubt electric has its place if you are an urban based country, but the future is hydrogen and more efficient combustion engines. Which are greener than electric vehicles,
For now I will stick to diesel in my ute as the BYD get stuck due to there weight.

 

[spanj]

I agree, but at the same time, in the bigger scheme of things, replacing one type of car with another won't change anything.

The only solution, in respect of motor vehicles, is to have less of them, and drive them less.

Obviously, this requires investing in clean, efficient, and affordable public transport, but this wont happen because our government is more keen on spending money on benefits claimants than on infrastructure.

So, let's not kid ourselves: replacing ICE cars with EVs won't save the planet. Yes, EVs mean children mining Cobalt in the Congo, and ICE cars mean more oil wars in the Middle East, but, again, we are just trading one problem with another. The same applies to shipping EV batteries from China vs shipping oil from the Gulf - both are polluting, I.e. there's no 'clean' option.

Personal transport vehicles are inefficient, polluting, and are not good for the environment. Of course, we do need them, but their use should be limited to where and when necessary.

Define what is necessary ?

 

[Blaser1234]

Pollution in the environment is not about anything other than politics and taxation. What are peoples thoughts on hydrogen?

 

[John Gryphon]

What are peoples thoughts on hydrogen?

it makes a rippin` cracker.

 

[countrryboy]

What are peoples thoughts on hydrogen?

Is it not quite expensive to produce and difficult to store and transport as needs to be at a high.
pressure.

I think I seen something either Shetland or Orkney has an experimental plant making hydrogen from the excess power it has from wind turbines, solar and possibly tidal power.
So has plenty of free unusable energy at certain times of day or in certain weather.


Possibly it might make more sense than the massive battery farms their building all around me the now.
Instead of stopping turbines at night/low demand they keep them turning full pelt and put the 'free' electricity to making Hydrogen.

 

[bobo]

The grid could be a big problem if UK goes big into EVs esp Hgvs, fork lifts etc.
Some factories or industrial estates may struggle to get enough power through the grid.

Grid has also been and still is partly a problem here.
But in connection with the liberation from fossil fuels, many kilometers of district heating pipes have been dug down, where additional electrical cables have been laid at the same time.

Do you actually believe all you wrote
My research tells me it’s about 240-350 km per charge, and yes we had a electric car, friends of ours have a electric mustang, you cannot get to Auckland and back on a charge, 157k each way, as for trucks 150k city delivery upto 400-600 long haul.
Denmark is like NZ , the government pushed, the electric agenda, not out of science based info but because it owns the producer of electricity, even thought it claims to be independent.
There is no doubt electric has its place if you are an urban based country, but the future is hydrogen and more efficient combustion engines. Which are greener than electric vehicles,
For now I will stick to diesel in my ute as the BYD get stuck due to there weight

I don't know about an electric mustang, it sounds like a car from the US.
Here we drive mostly European cars.

Mercedes' personal car has a range of 750-1000 kilometers depending on which battery pack you choose.
Audi, BMW and Volvo, all have between 500-850 kilometers, depending on which battery you choose.
The new Renault should have a range of 1400 kilometers, which is quite an upgrade compared to the 3-year-old Renault, which only had 3-500 kilometers depending on which battery package it had.

Range is just a sales parameter.
No one here drives more than 3-500 kilometers without taking a break. So any range beyond that is largely unused.
Charging takes less than 15-25 minutes, for those who have chosen quick-charge batteries.
As I said, we are 80% electric cars, and that doesn't cause any problems, not even for those who take the car to southern Europe on vacation.


My brother drives exports, mostly to France. He got a new Mercedes 48 ton truck in March.
He loves it, it pulls much better and easyer than any truck he's had before and is a joy to drive, even with a full load, it pulls straight over even the steepest hills at full speed with incredible ease.
According to him, the official range is 600 kilometers.
He doesn't know if that's right, because the law in the EU allows a truck driver to drive a maximum of 4.5 hours between 45 minute breaks. He says it's typically around 20-25% left after 4.5 hours of driving.
All truck brands in EU are aiming for a range of approx. 500-600 kilometers, because it fits with the legislation here.

A brand like MAN offers electric trucks for use outside the EU, but with a range of over 800 kilometers.
The new diesel trucks that are in this country at dealers are being exported now, there is simply no one who wants to buy them.
There are no tax benefits for trucks when switching to electric, so trucking companies do it solely because of better economics.
The truck companies started switching slowly 2 years ago, and it has picked up speed with the new generation of electric trucks that came out at the end of 2025.
I can guarantee you they wouldn't switch if there wasn't good money in it.


There has been a lot of investment in hydrogen technology up to a few yaers ago, but so far, it has proven to be inferior to electricity, so many people have lost a lot of money on hydrogen investments.
Safety has also been a huge concern with hydrogen, and it has never been resolved.
It doesn't really seem like anyone is developing hydrogen technology on larger scale here anymore.

 

[markj1]

Define what is necessary ?

I can define what is unnecessary.

My neighbour used to work in Mayfair. Every morning at 8 AM an Uber picked him up.

One morning, I saw him get into his Audi. While chatting to him he explained that one of the senior managers retired, which freed up a parking space in the company's car park.

But what about the Congestion Charge? It costs as much as an Uber? He gave me a look as if I was a madman. Why would I want to take an Uber when it's possible to drive?

For the record, one of my customers is located near his office. I've never driven there. When the weather is good, I walk it (20-25 minutes). Otherwise, it's a black cab (£15-20), the bus, or the tube (the last two free as I am over 60).

Then, a colleague at work who lives near me always drives his car to the office. I declined his offer for a ride because the journey actually is 15 minutes shorted by Tube.

I have many more examples.

 

[markj1]

Pollution in the environment is not about anything other than politics and taxation. What are peoples thoughts on hydrogen?

Hydrogen is the Betamax of cars. Better technology that never caught on.

The issue stems from the fact the car manufacturers were dragging their heels over alternatives to ICE. I believe that Mercedes, for example, had a Fuel Cell demonstrator as early as 2000, but 26 later, can you buy one?

Then, in 2010, Elon Musk decided to take a pile of laptop batteries and build the first mass produced EVs. The rest is history.

Battery-powered cars are now the de-facto standard for zero-exhaust-emissions cars. There will never be a nationwide network of hydrogen 'petrol' stations. Hydrogen will only exist is some applications such as public transport or haulage, where the vehicles can be refuelled at the depot.

So, is Hydrogen better? Probably, but at the same time, it's a case of too little, too late.

 

[countrryboy]

Can hydrogen be used to generate electricity in power stations?

Perhaps if u built hydrogen plants at the existing power stations or old power stations as the grid/wires will be there.

I don't know if it would be possible to send excess wind/solar power towards the power stations where it 'makes' hydrogen when it has spare eleccy and then burns the hydrogen when it needs more eleccy.
Might be a better way to store the energy than batteries.

I would imagine it might be more adaptable than coal or nuclear in that u could crank it up or down as demand needed.

 

[markj1]

Can hydrogen be used to generate electricity in power stations?

Perhaps if u built hydrogen plants at the existing power stations or old power stations as the grid/wires will be there.

I don't know if it would be possible to send excess wind/solar power towards the power stations where it 'makes' hydrogen when it has spare eleccy and then burns the hydrogen when it needs more eleccy.
Might be a better way to store the energy than batteries.

I would imagine it might be more adaptable than coal or nuclear in that u could crank it up or down as demand needed.

My understanding is that the main benefit of Hydrogen fuel cell technology is that it is zero-exhaust-emissions, making it ideal (together with battery powered EVs) for use in urban areas.

However, the technology in itself is not very efficient, due to the heavy use of electricity to produce the Hydrogen then maintain it cooled and under pressure. There will likely be a net loss if we use electricity from renewable sources to produce Hydrogen and then use the Hydrogen to produce electricity in power stations.

So, I am not sure that Hydrogen fuel cell technology makes sense outside of vehicles driven in densely populated areas.

 

[spanj]

I can define what is unnecessary.

My neighbour used to work in Mayfair. Every morning at 8 AM an Uber picked him up.

One morning, I saw him get into his Audi. While chatting to him he explained that one of the senior managers retired, which freed up a parking space in the company's car park.

But what about the Congestion Charge? It costs as much as an Uber? He gave me a look as if I was a madman. Why would I want to take an Uber when it's possible to drive?

For the record, one of my customers is located near his office. I've never driven there. When the weather is good, I walk it (20-25 minutes). Otherwise, it's a black cab (£15-20), the bus, or the tube (the last two free as I am over 60).

Then, a colleague at work who lives near me always drives his car to the office. I declined his offer for a ride because the journey actually is 15 minutes shorted by Tube.

I have many more examples.

Not the question I asked though

 

[countrryboy]

My understanding is that the main benefit of Hydrogen fuel cell technology is that it is zero-exhaust-emissions, making it ideal (together with battery powered EVs) for use in urban areas.

However, the technology in itself is not very efficient, due to the heavy use of electricity to produce the Hydrogen then maintain it cooled and under pressure. There will likely be a net loss if we use electricity from renewable sources to produce Hydrogen and then use the Hydrogen to produce electricity in power stations.

So, I am not sure that Hydrogen fuel cell technology makes sense outside of vehicles driven in densely populated areas.

Aye I get tht mark.

But I thought it was the storage and transporting it all round the country was a big down side.

If u only used 'free' electricity to make it, ie when turbines are closed down ( and owners still paid for them not producing) so basically the exact same as a battery storage system.
Instead of putting it into a battery u make Hydrogen and when demand rises that power goes to the grid.
Except u have the energy stored as Hydrogen
That's wot they were experimenting with in Orkney/Shetland i forget which now.
So ur eleccy for ur cars is emissons carbon free.

I know the doubters like to moan about battery cars/bikes etc going on fire but I imagine Hydrogen would be a hell of a lot worse

 

[markj1]

I know the doubters like to moan about battery cars/bikes etc going on fire but I imagine Hydrogen would be a hell of a lot worse

Petrol and Diesel oil aren't much better either!

 

[bobo]

My research tells me it’s about 240-350 km per charge, and yes we had a electric car, friends of ours have a electric mustang, you cannot get to Auckland and back on a charge, 157k each way, as for trucks 150k city delivery upto 400-600 long haul.

I Googled Mustang and found it.
I must admit that I have never seen one on the roads here.
With the smallest battery pack it is stated to have a range of up to 470 kilometers.
The range is not stated in EuroNorm, so I don't know how much you can count on the stated range.
Its battery is also really slow to charge compared to other electric cars.

Ford Mustang Mach-E - 100% elektrisk SUV | Ford DK

Ford Mustang Mach-E - 100% elektrisk fuldblods SUV. Med enestående rækkevidde og hurtig opladning. Oplev Ford Mustang Mach-E her.

www.ford.dk

I think the most popular Ford car here is the Capri.

If you compare Mustang to one of the models that are popular here, such as the VW ID4, which is very popular outside the big cities (in cities the use smal cars). You see, the Mustang is far behind, especially in charging time.
The ID4 range is stated in EuroNorm, so you can expect it to be a little longer in the summer and a little shorter in the winter.

Volkswagen ID.4 | Opgraderet teknologi og udstyr

Oplev Volkswagen ID.4 - Style, Pure, Pro og GTX. Find din perfekte Volkswagen elbil med innovativt design og moderne teknologi - ID.4 opgraderer hverdagen

www.volkswagen.dk

The car I looked at to buy with my saved money to replace my old Diesel is an ID4 with the largeBattery+ package, which means the range will be somewhat longer than with the "large battery package".
I want the largeBattery+ package because I will be towing a 1000kg boat trailer. The + package is also much better at turbocharging, so the charging time at the large charging stations is only about 15 minutes.
In addition, one get the electricity for free from VW for the first year.

I know the doubters like to moan about battery cars/bikes etc going on fire but I imagine Hydrogen would be a hell of a lot worse

The risk of petrol and diesel catching fire is also present and is at least as great as with electric cars.
Hydrogen is safe to use, the Germans said so when they sent the Hindenburg airship across the Atlantic.
Modern hydrogen systems are of course something completely different, but they have so far not been able to meet EU safety standards.


A problem is that the batteries in electric cars are very difficult to extinguish.
That's why special foam containers are carried on ferries to extinguish electric car fires.
A serius problem would occurs when several electric cars where to catch fire at the same time on a ferry

Fortunately, car fires on ferries are not that common.
Again, I have to say that emissions are one thing, but people here buy electric cars for the simple reason that they are much cheaper to run than fossil fuel cars.
We actually produce and refine the oil we need ourselves from our oil fields in the North Sea, so we are not even pressured to switch to electricity.
Right now, Denmark's oil fields in the North Sea are a really good business, as we export the part of it we dont use ourself.

 

[markj1]

I Googled Mustang and found it.
I must admit that I have never seen one on the roads here.
With the smallest battery pack it is stated to have a range of up to 470 kilometers.
The range is not stated in EuroNorm, so I don't know how much you can count on the stated range.
Its battery is also really slow to charge compared to other electric cars.

Ford Mustang Mach-E - 100% elektrisk SUV | Ford DK

Ford Mustang Mach-E - 100% elektrisk fuldblods SUV. Med enestående rækkevidde og hurtig opladning. Oplev Ford Mustang Mach-E her.

www.ford.dk

I think the most popular Ford car here is the Capri.

If you compare Mustang to one of the models that are popular here, such as the VW ID4, which is very popular outside the big cities (in cities the use smal cars). You see, the Mustang is far behind, especially in charging time.
The ID4 range is stated in EuroNorm, so you can expect it to be a little longer in the summer and a little shorter in the winter.

Volkswagen ID.4 | Opgraderet teknologi og udstyr

Oplev Volkswagen ID.4 - Style, Pure, Pro og GTX. Find din perfekte Volkswagen elbil med innovativt design og moderne teknologi - ID.4 opgraderer hverdagen

www.volkswagen.dk

The car I looked at to buy with my saved money to replace my old Diesel is an ID4 with the largeBattery+ package, which means the range will be somewhat longer than with the "large battery package".
I want the largeBattery+ package because I will be towing a 1000kg boat trailer. The + package is also much better at turbocharging, so the charging time at the large charging stations is only about 15 minutes.
In addition, one get the electricity for free from VW for the first year.


The risk of petrol and diesel catching fire is also present and is at least as great as with electric cars.
Hydrogen is safe to use, the Germans said so when they sent the Hindenburg airship across the Atlantic.
Modern hydrogen systems are of course something completely different, but they have so far not been able to meet EU safety standards.


A problem is that the batteries in electric cars are very difficult to extinguish.
That's why special foam containers are carried on ferries to extinguish electric car fires.
A serius problem would occurs when several electric cars where to catch fire at the same time on a ferry

Fortunately, car fires on ferries are not that common.
Again, I have to say that emissions are one thing, but people here buy electric cars for the simple reason that they are much cheaper to run than fossil fuel cars.
We actually produce and refine the oil we need ourselves from our oil fields in the North Sea, so we are not even pressured to switch to electricity.
Right now, Denmark's oil fields in the North Sea are a really good business, as we export the part of it we dont use ourself.

I drove my 2021 IONIQ 5 from London to Switzerland and back. I later did the same trip again in a 2025 IONIQ 5. No sweat. Long distance journeys in an EV isn't an issue at all in Western Europe. The situation might obviously be different in other parts of the world.