Advances in ammunition

[MTheaded but happy]

Buying a new gun for an extra 300 to 400 fps plus dealing with variation etc is a ball ache.

Imagine this scenario, zeroing your existing 6.5creed to this high pressure ammo for a hill stalk or to try and get a big fallow buck on open fields and then once your trophy is firmly above the mantle piece going back the standard wet lettuce ammo when you don’t want to blow a muntjac in half…

I forget how lucky I am living in N.Yorks , if I went to the Harrogate Countrt Sports Show today I could get a variation in an hour . My last one that I completed online took 5 days .

I wonder how many only have one rifle to do everything? But I do get your point , though I'd be tempted to go PRC and download for the smaller species if that were the case .

 

[seedawood]

My understanding is that brass cases expand and 'grip' the inside of the chamber, hence one reason for the advise to not leave oil in the chamber after cleaning, what is going to be the effect of a non expanding steel case hammering back against your bolt face?
When can we have a debate on advancement in stalker field skills.

 

[cjm1066]

It will be down to marketing, the Creedmore was successful, the 260 Remington wasn't.

New cartridges are introduced most years, most fail.

 

[KimE]

It seems like there is a big difference between the English-speaking part of the world and the rest, in terms of calibers.
The English-speaking countries, with the USA in the lead, go for muzzle velocity.
Here in central Europe we go for heavy slow bullets. It probably also has something to do with hunting culture.
Where in the USA i have heard it is considered acceptable to shoot all the way out to 3-400 meters, it is considered unethical to shoot much more than about 150 meters here in central Europe.

Here the good old 9.3x62, with its heavy slow bullet, well on its way to achieving a popularity second only to the .308 Win.
Whereas it's been a few years since I last saw a magnum rifle it doesn't really seem like they're popular anymore.

A 350 Legend with peak alloy case buildt on a Vixen as the new 9,3*57.

 

[KimE]

My understanding is that brass cases expand and 'grip' the inside of the chamber, hence one reason for the advise to not leave oil in the chamber after cleaning, what is going to be the effect of a non expanding steel case hammering back against your bolt face?
When can we have a debate on advancement in stalker field skills.

The steel are temporary expanding not stretched as brass, yes its going to get more push on the bolt face. To limit the push on the bolt face you can use a slim cartridge as 3006 as opposed to 300wsm with more area in the base. It dont seems to be so big problem for modern actions.

 

[HonestJohn]

Wonder how an AR platform would stand up to it

 

[KimE]

Wonder how an AR platform would stand up to it

SigSauer has beefed up the locking lugs on m7(Spear) for their 6.8mm ammo.
US special forces are testing high pressure 5.56 ammo for a new rifle I suppose they are specifying better steel for a new rifle.

 

[Bowland blades]

It will be down to marketing, the Creedmore was successful, the 260 Remington wasn't.

New cartridges are introduced most years, most fail.

fail? Commercially yes ! But it was marketing over performance and I bet there are plenty of 260rem reamers in the hands of rifle smiths

 

[KimE]

6,5 Gotmore 6,5 prc killer?

 

[Iago]

There was an interesting Vortex Nation podcast on the 6.5Creedmoor +Peak. The guy from Federal said that increased velocity was achieved via case characteristics and without increasing powder load, and so no detriment to barrel life at all. If so and if it's achieving/exceeding 6.5PRC performance without any barrel life loss that will be interesting.

 

[old 30-06]

O.K. for the sake of argument, lets presume it works as per the hype. So you can get another 300 feet per second out of your rifle. Hooray ! But, do you need it ? I mean, do you really need it ? I mean really, really need it ?

Currently, we all manage with what we have. It has been like this for a long time, and with no complaints. Personally, I manage very well, and have had no problems whatsoever with any of my calibers. I shall not be trying to wear oput any barrel quicker.

I think this is another American import that does not cross the Atlantic too well. Same as the AR platform. Ammo is expensive enough as it is without adding another layer to it.

O.K. long distance shooters will say it may give you another hundred yards or so before it goes sub sonic, but will that really matter to 98 % of us ? Its just like Andy Burnham, seems to be the answer now, but in a couple of years will it be just another flash in the pan ?

 

[25 Sharps]

Buying a new gun for an extra 300 to 400 fps plus dealing with variation etc is a ball ache.

Imagine this scenario, zeroing your existing 6.5creed to this high pressure ammo for a hill stalk or to try and get a big fallow buck on open fields and then once your trophy is firmly above the mantle piece going back the standard wet lettuce ammo when you don’t want to blow a muntjac in half…

People do that all the time, for less!

6.5 PRC over 6.5 creedmoor, 30-06 over .308, 300 PRC over 30-06, 7 mm rem mag over 7-08 etc.

People jump at new cartridges and buy new rifles that are 100 to 200 fps faster than the current offering.

Then they often stick a short barrel on them and handicap them .

 

[25 Sharps]

There was an interesting Vortex Nation podcast on the 6.5Creedmoor +Peak. The guy from Federal said that increased velocity was achieved via case characteristics and without increasing powder load, and so no detriment to barrel life at all. If so and if it's achieving/exceeding 6.5PRC performance without any barrel life loss that will be interesting.

The guy who wants to sell the ammo said it was fine? Must be true!

 

[Bo Diddley]

flash in the pan ?

Waiting for a Train... You took me back to great times and never even realised it

 

[NullMac]

I tried some speciality brass with the Creed. Small rifle primers. Checked estimates for pressure on Quickload for what it was worth I mean I was going to be way above Saami. It loaded up to factory box performance on 65 PRC. It’s not rocket science. I assumed that the safety factor on the rifle design was a whole heap more than about 15% over a theoretical Saami max p.

What is clear is that Creed factory ammo is way under loaded making room for a nice magnum cartridge.

Last time I heard there was a suggestion that the 277 Fury was being downloaded from 80ksi as it wasn’t very accurate

 

[Mr. Gain]

I think the cartridge exists due to a military requirement for a suppressors and a modest overall length. This is only achievable by fitting an unusually short barrel, and the "solution" to this was an ultra-high-pressure cartridge, which in turn required a new case design. All of this effort is due to the notion that infantry rifles need to be able to defeat modern body armour at range. However, what we are seeing from Ukraine about the roles and vulnerabilities of infantry strongly suggests this thinking is already redundant. As such, the characteristics of the cartridge feel like a symptom of what happens when you try to solve the wrong problem.

 

[Heym SR20]

These break throughs are very interesting. Or put it another way, the core technology of nitro cellulose based powders contained in a brass cartridge in a bolt action or automatic rifle / machine gun was pretty much perfected by the turn of the last century - 130 odd years ago.

Of course there have been improvements and variations, and in many cases simplifications to ease manufacture and improve reliability.

Even the cornerstone of modern military rifles - the AR and AK platforms were pretty much perfected in the 1950’s.

The brass case does the work of sealing the whole mechanism so the 60,000 odd psi propels the bullet out of the muzzle at some where around 3,000 fps plus / minus 300 fps.

Steel has many many advantages over brass. Lot cheaper, and a lot stronger. But it is less flexible and doesn’t obturate as well.

The latest generation developments have made a steel case where the material can contain substantially higher pressures, it expands to seal the breach and the bullet can be launched at much higher velocities.

Is this needed for 95% of hunting activities - probably not. On the battle field, where armour protection is growing is in in sophistication, higher velocities are needed have a bullet that will kill the enemy, and not just bounce off the armour.

I suspect much of this thread is really a repeat of bewhiskered old Victorian gentlemen sitting in their clubs pouring scorn on the modern smokeless powders in high velocity bolt action rifles, especially as they had only recently rearmed with a brass cartridge holding black powder shooting big lead bullets out of single shot rifles - martini Henry’s etc. The 303, 7x57, 8x57, 30-40, 30-03 will never catch on - yet pretty much the same cartridges are still mainstream today.

 

[Mr. Gain]

These break throughs are very interesting. Or put it another way, the core technology of nitro cellulose based powders contained in a brass cartridge in a bolt action or automatic rifle / machine gun was pretty much perfected by the turn of the last century - 130 odd years ago.

Of course there have been improvements and variations, and in many cases simplifications to ease manufacture and improve reliability.

Even the cornerstone of modern military rifles - the AR and AK platforms were pretty much perfected in the 1950’s.

The brass case does the work of sealing the whole mechanism so the 60,000 odd psi propels the bullet out of the muzzle at some where around 3,000 fps plus / minus 300 fps.

Steel has many many advantages over brass. Lot cheaper, and a lot stronger. But it is less flexible and doesn’t obturate as well.

The latest generation developments have made a steel case where the material can contain substantially higher pressures, it expands to seal the breach and the bullet can be launched at much higher velocities.

Is this needed for 95% of hunting activities - probably not. On the battle field, where armour protection is growing is in in sophistication, higher velocities are needed have a bullet that will kill the enemy, and not just bounce off the armour.

I suspect much of this thread is really a repeat of bewhiskered old Victorian gentlemen sitting in their clubs pouring scorn on the modern smokeless powders in high velocity bolt action rifles, especially as they had only recently rearmed with a brass cartridge holding black powder shooting big lead bullets out of single shot rifles - martini Henry’s etc. The 303, 7x57, 8x57, 30-40, 30-03 will never catch on - yet pretty much the same cartridges are still mainstream today.

I twirl my moustache at your post, sir. I will see you on the heath at dawn tomorrow, and may the mightiest muttonchops prevail!

 

[lotuseater]

Do you really need it to be any faster?

 

[KimE]

I think the cartridge exists due to a military requirement for a suppressors and a modest overall length. This is only achievable by fitting an unusually short barrel, and the "solution" to this was an ultra-high-pressure cartridge, which in turn required a new case design. All of this effort is due to the notion that infantry rifles need to be able to defeat modern body armour at range. However, what we are seeing from Ukraine about the roles and vulnerabilities of infantry strongly suggests this thinking is already redundant. As such, the characteristics of the cartridge feel like a symptom of what happens when you try to solve the wrong problem.

The rifle I use most are my 300blk ba13 18" barrel under 1 meter with supressor. I would like a 1 meter long supressed bolt action with a moose, red deer cartridge. Yes much of the 6.8mm intented use can be made by drones, the same for scout/sniper teams its safer for them to use a drone for observation and targeting.