DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO - if you're about to eat your lunch!!!!

[Jelendeer]

PM on dead Fallow Buck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2YmOlQaNzY&list=UU-TC_JC7bMqdHI3j__m0gIw&index=1&feature=plcpBrought to you by Tony Lascelles, Dave Watson & Mike Allison - Jelen Deer Services


Regards,

 

[Wills]

Was the cause determined?

I must admit my bowl of cereal doesn't look quite as appealing. Still interesting though.

 

[baguio]

Thanks for sharing. A good job done.

Mushroom soup anyone?

 

[AllThingsShooting]

Same with sausage sandwich....

Thanks for the informative video, another good one to the collection...

 

[pw7x57]

Very interesting thanks for showing

 

[White Hart]

Thanks for that, very interesting and informative. It would be nice to find out the outcome in time.

 

[danpd]

 

[243Sako]

Another very interesting video, Mike. I will be interested to hear the results from the tissue sample.

Regards

Rob
243Sako

 

[mereside]

thanks for sharing very informative, atb wayne

 

[johndeere]

Seen very similar symptoms in older cattle at the slaughterhouse witch where what we called in the trade wired.
The unfortunate animal had eaten a piece of wire and it punctured the rumen wall and massive infection ensued very similar to the buck.
not saying that wire is the cause just similar symptoms would be very interested to know if the cause was established

 

[Jelendeer]

Seen very similar symptoms in older cattle at the slaughterhouse witch where what we called in the trade wired.
The unfortunate animal had eaten a piece of wire and it punctured the rumen wall and massive infection ensued very similar to the buck.
not saying that wire is the cause just similar symptoms would be very interested to know if the cause was established

Actually, Johndeere, you're not far off the mark there. There was in fact a puncture wound which looked like it could have been caused by wire and that coincided with the internal infection. Tony and I were looking at some form of peritonitis as the primary infection, possibly caused by a puncture wound in the stomach, however cases of peritonitis and concurrent blood poisoning in my experience resulted in death long before the animal became as emaciated as it did.

 

[Apache]

This could be editing again but I do think it was a real shame to do such an incomplete post mortem. To get even close to ascertaining a cause of death all major body systems need to be examined. We had all the talk of tuberculosis and then never examined the lungs!

What the video showed was a discrete abscess, it didn't look like a generalised peritonitis. The condition Johndeere eluded to (wire or traumatic reticulitis) is a possibility in deer but the abscess was too far back. Your lump of firm tissue could well be scar tissue from trauma (despite the commentator saying not) that has left foreign material and seeded bacteria into the abdomen. The green colour to the puss in a sheep would have CLA (caseous lymphadenitis) in the back of my mind (caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis). It has been described in deer. Another reason to check some more lymph nodes.

Perhaps with hindsight if the place the deer was shot was not suitable for disposal the carcase should have been moved intact to the disposal site where a complete post mortem could have been carried out in a much more satisfactory fashion.

IF we were thinking TB it might have been nice if the person carrying out the investigation had removed his watch and perhaps put on some disinfectable waterproof clothing and wellington boots. A disposable knife or one of all metal construction would be preferable.

 

[ytene]

Hi Apache thanks for your input ,the intention was to examine the area where the wound had penetrated the abdomen,the advice of the Duty Veterinary Officer was to deal with the carcasse in situ..not re-locate it..(.bearing in mind that TB can be discovered in a routine field gralloch),the limited PM was isolated to the rear abdomen only near the entry wound. To clarify ,if the deer had spiked itself (in the location shown in the video) which is likely in this case a massive injection of bacteria would trigger a pyogenic abscess or similar as was discovered here,the initial concerns re. TB were based on the emaciated state of the deer,but this animal could clearly not digest any food that it had eaten and had gradually deteriorated, the other possibility muted and discussed by the vet was Chronic Wasting Disease, no UK cases are documented as yet . So , cause of death- 7x57 to the neck/cause of condition-massive infection from penetrating wound and associated gut damage precluding digestion and subsequent loss of condition. Also I would agree that the wound itself was trauma,however the pathogens that triggered this massive infection and resulted in the lesion could have occurred at the time of the injury resulting in a puncture to the digestive tract releasing bacteria into the area or injected at the wound site, either mechanism obviously had a potential for introducing internal contamination within the abdominal cavity to catastrophic level.

 

[Jelendeer]

This could be editing again but I do think it was a real shame to do such an incomplete post mortem. To get even close to ascertaining a cause of death all major body systems need to be examined. We had all the talk of tuberculosis and then never examined the lungs!

What the video showed was a discrete abscess, it didn't look like a generalised peritonitis. The condition Johndeere eluded to (wire or traumatic reticulitis) is a possibility in deer but the abscess was too far back. Your lump of firm tissue could well be scar tissue from trauma (despite the commentator saying not) that has left foreign material and seeded bacteria into the abdomen. The green colour to the puss in a sheep would have CLA (caseous lymphadenitis) in the back of my mind (caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis). It has been described in deer. Another reason to check some more lymph nodes.

Perhaps with hindsight if the place the deer was shot was not suitable for disposal the carcase should have been moved intact to the disposal site where a complete post mortem could have been carried out in a much more satisfactory fashion.

IF we were thinking TB it might have been nice if the person carrying out the investigation had removed his watch and perhaps put on some disinfectable waterproof clothing and wellington boots. A disposable knife or one of all metal construction would be preferable.

Hi Apache,

Thank you for your comments. We know what the cause of death was (and we're not vets). Whilst OUR initial suspicion was TB, one of your fellow Vets was able to tell us it wasn't, without even viewing the animal!!!! ......... How cool is that!

Our intention was to do something that we rarely see on this site, to provide the viewer with video footage and an idea of what they might find inside such an animal - given that most stalkers will never have the chance to see it for themselves.

No disrespect, but it's easy for qualified vets such as yourself to criticise what ordinary individuals do. I suppose we could have simply buried the carcass, and nobody would have been the wiser. We chose instead to share an experience with SD members - most of whom thanked us for sharing that.

Regards,

 

[Paul at Fechan]

nasty but a great vid

 

[oakleaf]

Ok, posting as Oakleaf as these are personal comments, but for clarity I am also Andy of Moray Outfitting.

SD is, if it's anything, a great learning resource so the effort made by anyone to help promote knowledge should be acknowledged.

Particularly with pictures and video the adage about 'painting a thousand words' is quite germane - and as my part 1 Assessor pointed out many years ago at the plethora of photo's I'd included in the portfolio - 'They might not be all the words you really want to say'! Video compounds that - I strangely look fat in all footage and I know Mike is far better looking in reality...

This site can be a bit waspy ( or rather certain commentators can be ) and there have been regrettable instances of thread bashing - so I can fully accept the slight trepidation and sensitivity that posters must feel when deciding to put up threads like this. So all kudos for anyone doing so.

Personally, I feel a good deal of the learning potential and impact can be lost if an item is posted with little or no background or explanation. Occasionally it can be useful to draw out conclusions as part of the process - but the risk is that threads degenerate if umbridge is taken by any side in the following debate.

When someone like Mike posts the expectation is high as to the content and quality - there are enough posters on here that his credentials are not in debate - but that also is the position squarely taken in Jelen marketing and media. You set the bar!

In recent videos ( not just referring to Jelen here )- all of which very good in general - there have been the odd wrinkle. That's life, not a criticism - even Hollywood make mistakes. The odd mistake is unavoidable and doesn't detract from the message. And I'm not using 'mistake' in a pejorative sense - please be clear on that. They are niggles and should not become part of a debate that moves away from the main intent of the subject.

All the above preamble is my attempt to set the scene that I'm not out to knock the efforts of the various such thread starters nor Mike in particular.

The elements of this thread that I would like to raise are -

1. Given the information initially supplied, I would have questioned the decision to open the carcase in the location it was. Not saying right or wrong, but as a learning tool it would have been relevant to discuss that at the get go. Fine video itself isn't scripted to the Nth degree, but a tag in the video or a note in the opening thread would have been extremely useful and a good discussion point - furthering the original intent. Its a crucial element of the theme of the video.
2. Following from the above, I found Apache's post a constructive and useful addition to the debate. Again for clarity, I know Apache by virtue of previous SD discussions, PMs and purchases from us. Never met him. But from that contact I know he has the utmost concern not to cause offence or be misconstrued by his written word.
I read his post as constructive and informative. The same goes for Johndeere.
3. The flow of the debate gets a little muddied when individual members post to a thread, when they are connected to a trade member by virtue of employment or other commercial relationship. It happens to us all occasionally - I hold hands up; forgetting which account logged on as etc. But in this thread and others it can be a bit confusing. And thats the full extent of my issue - confusion. Appreciate it could just be me ( answers not required! ). But a brief declaration of interest is a common practice on SD and think it would be helpful.
4. Maybe it was a carry over of my general state of confusion, but I found Ytene and Mike's responses to Apache in particular rather defensive. For me that detracted from the overall merit of the thread and I dont see way it was necessary. Apache's post merely gave an ideal opportunity to clarify/ extend the discussion to everyone's benefit.
Fully accept that sauce for the goose fits the gander - it is very easy to misconstrue written words on a screen, without the benefit of voice tone, body language etc - so my unreserved apologies if I have misinterpreted posts in either direction.

 

[Jelendeer]

Hi Andy,

Fair point on your post. I'll bear your points in mind on future stuff.

Regards,

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Back on under Moray.

Grief you're a fast reader!

Thank you for your response.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

I thought Tony looked worse than the deer...

Could have had a shave old chap..

I enjoyed the video and the comments after were fair and added not detracted from the learning curve

Terry

 

[Buchan]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting it. I'm not convinced the fluke damage talked about was fluke. It looked more like adhesions from the peritonitis, but that could be the camera angle.