Gamekeeper jailed

[sikamalc]

Its not an easy life being a gamekeeper, long hours, poor pay (as a rule). BUT the law is the law, and it's not as if it has not been known for many years that birds of prey are protected and that poisoning or killing of such species will land you in hot water with the law.

So risking your livelihood and firearms certificate is worth the risk?? I think not and therefore if you are caught you can expect to be prosecuted. I note even the NGO have distanced themselves and rightly so.

 

[gixer1]

Its not an easy life being a gamekeeper, long hours, poor pay (as a rule). BUT the law is the law, and it's not as if it has not been known for many years that birds of prey are protected and that poisoning or killing of such species will land you in hot water with the law.

So risking your livelihood and firearms certificate is worth the risk?? I think not and therefore if you are caught you can expect to be prosecuted. I note even the NGO have distanced themselves and rightly so.

I still dispair at the fact you can bash a granny on the head and get less than if you bash a bird on the head....world gone mad!

 

[Widespreaddanger]

I think it should be down to the Land and Estate owners what happens on their ground especially with regards to shooting estates and if there is large amounts of damage being done. The sporting and shooting opportunities are what brings in income to a working estate and if the owner does not want these birds on his ground the rspb or whoever should trap and remove or he should have have the rights to pass on to keepers to remove or cull. It is a fine balance keeping the conservation aspects of countryside on the level and in my opinion there has to be a proper review into certain birds, badgers etc. We should not be threatened by the tree huggers and in return people need to be educated into proper species management.

 

[Sinistral]

I still dispair at the fact you can bash a granny on the head and get less than if you bash a bird on the head....world gone mad!

Well .... that's an insightful judgment on penal policy. 4 months reduced in practice to a few weeks time served. Are you serious? It's despair BTW.

 

[RED-DOT]

Should good gamekeepers and land owners be rewarded for supplying all year round food for raptors? Eagles and others would certainly stave in winter if it were not for gralloch and gamebirds out in the open for them. I feed my buzzards in the rearing season just to keep them away from the pens and its legal and works.

 

[Mick9abf]

In a word "No". Although both are charities they are also recognised as a public authority in terms of RIPA (the act covering surveillance activities). That means if authorised they could enter onto private land (in England and Wales) covertly in order to gather evidence.

Win Mod 70

I had typed out a long explanatory post but the IPhone decided it wasn't having it and I can't be bothered typing it out again so in brief -

I think you are wrong on the RSPB being a public authority in cases where RIPA/RIPSA apply but either way this is fact - in the eyes of the law, as in what can usually be legally used in court as admissible evidence and being in line with ECHR, to legally obtain the footage they did on private property would require them to have had a RIPSA Part III property interference authority.

This, in the circumstances outlined by what I've read in the press and online would never have been granted.

In the unlikely event that they had a RIPSA authority but no Part III authority the surveillance Commisioner would be all over them like a tramp on chips.

The circumstances 'prima facia' (to sound like I really know what I'm speaking about), are that they clearly didn't have authority or permission from the land owner to be there placing cameras and did so on, but, it was accepted by the court.

I am in no way condoning what has happened but this will end up a 'Stated Case' in Scots law which will open the floodgates for not only other similar cases but could extend to cases regarding anything - neighbour disputes etc you name it and has the potential to be abused.

 

[gixer1]

Well .... that's an insightful judgment on penal policy. 4 months reduced in practice to a few weeks time served. Are you serious? It's despair BTW.

it's an opinion, if you don't like it.... tough! .....and you must be so proud you spotted one letter incorrect, carry that pride around with you all day you grammatical hero. and just to let you know in post #13 of this thread you missed a space after a comma - http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co....r-the-ballistitians/page2?highlight=sinistral

A few weeks or a few months inside will have the same effect on his future when he tries to get a job, or tried to get a certificate - the fact is he's been to prison.

 

[palmer_mike]

it's an opinion, if you don't like it.... tough! .....and you must be so proud you spotted one letter incorrect, carry that pride around with you all day you grammatical hero.

A few weeks or a few months inside will have the same effect on his future when he tries to get a job, or tried to get a certificate - the fact is he's been to prison.

Not quite true, he's barred from having a FAC for 5 years (as his sentence was between 3 months and 3 years, over 3 years it a life ban).

 

[gixer1]

Not quite true, he's barred from having a FAC for 5 years (as his sentence was between 3 months and 3 years, over 3 years it a life ban).

It's still not going to be an easy task though is it? myself and few other SD member's know of someone that has not been able to get a certificate back after 5 years of trying and they were never in prison! it was a domestic disturbance charge and the other party even wrote a letter stating it was a misunderstanding.

My point being that this guys life will forever have a black mark on it.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[bambislayer]

Been reading this thread with interest.

i know George ( quite well), he's a good guy. Probably never had a parking ticket.

BUT, he broke the law and he's paying the price for it!

I'm sure that this case will not go away, RSPB and others have been campaigning for quite a while to have a custodial sentence . The rights and wrongs of this will be discussed for years. The thinking behind this, is that fines haven't been working. The thought being that, employers can pay a fine, an owner can't go to jail!

There is now a huge amount of pressure from various groups ( including SGA) to get this sorted, the problem being it's virtually impossible to 1. Prove an employer has ordered an employee to break the law. 2 catch the person in the act and many other factors.

the problem is that all keepers and shooters are tarred with the same brush and many are doing great work which is overshadowed by this BoP in the corner in the room. One of the biggest factors affecting this is money and the fact that most people working within RSPB etc, do not understand shooting and just can't have a discussion about it with those who do.

I've been trying to bridge this gap for 4 years ( leaving RSPB in 2 wks), it's not easy but I really do think it's possible. There are huge divides between shooting and Conservation, this needs to be sorted and I believe it will happen. It has to, because it breaks my heart to see folk like George being dragged through the courts, for something that can be seen as " it's just a bird" to being the most unpopular and heinous crime! I think it's somewhere in between. No one should be put in this situation.

my own feeling is that, us the shooters hold the answer to this as it is us, we buy the shooting and therefore as a customer we should be demanding better service. Whether it's being at a shoot as a beater or standing in a Butt as a gun.
How many times do we hear and see, the comments and " nudge, nudge, wink, wink" looks when a buzzard flys over. If our side is squeaky clean, then we are able to sit down and have a sensible discussion over possible protected species control. While wildlife crime exists, the " Conservation" side hold the moral high ground.

that's my " own thoughts". Better go and sit down and have a deep breath

FYI

George will really struggle getting an FAC back and will probably be exempt from working within the General Licence. My own opinion, is that he will probably be pretty sick of the whole thing by now!

 

[bogtrotter]

Been reading this thread with interest.

i know George ( quite well), he's a good guy. Probably never had a parking ticket.

BUT, he broke the law and he's paying the price for it!

I'm sure that this case will not go away, RSPB and others have been campaigning for quite a while to have a custodial sentence . The rights and wrongs of this will be discussed for years. The thinking behind this, is that fines haven't been working. The thought being that, employers can pay a fine, an owner can't go to jail!

There is now a huge amount of pressure from various groups ( including SGA) to get this sorted, the problem being it's virtually impossible to 1. Prove an employer has ordered an employee to break the law. 2 catch the person in the act and many other factors.

the problem is that all keepers and shooters are tarred with the same brush and many are doing great work which is overshadowed by this BoP in the corner in the room. One of the biggest factors affecting this is money and the fact that most people working within RSPB etc, do not understand shooting and just can't have a discussion about it with those who do.

I've been trying to bridge this gap for 4 years ( leaving RSPB in 2 wks), it's not easy but I really do think it's possible. There are huge divides between shooting and Conservation, this needs to be sorted and I believe it will happen. It has to, because it breaks my heart to see folk like George being dragged through the courts, for something that can be seen as " it's just a bird" to being the most unpopular and heinous crime! I think it's somewhere in between. No one should be put in this situation.

my own feeling is that, us the shooters hold the answer to this as it is us, we buy the shooting and therefore as a customer we should be demanding better service. Whether it's being at a shoot as a beater or standing in a Butt as a gun.
How many times do we hear and see, the comments and " nudge, nudge, wink, wink" looks when a buzzard flys over. If our side is squeaky clean, then we are able to sit down and have a sensible discussion over possible protected species control. While wildlife crime exists, the " Conservation" side hold the moral high ground.

that's my " own thoughts". Better go and sit down and have a deep breath

FYI

George will really struggle getting an FAC back and will probably be exempt from working within the General Licence. My own opinion, is that he will probably be pretty sick of the whole thing by now!

This post makes the most sense in this thread.

 

[unicorn71]

This post makes the most sense in this thread.

+1 Well said bambislayer.

 

[dan71]

How come fisheries canget a licence to shoot comerant if they dammage stocks? Shoots dont get any help for their stock. Farmers can shoot dogs if they are after their stock im told?

 

[Tamar]

Even if it could be proven that the keeper's employer HAD asked him to carry out illegal BoP control, identifying the owner would appear to be impossible http://www.andywightman.com/?p=4024

What a mess....

 

[bambislayer]

How come fisheries canget a licence to shoot comerant if they dammage stocks? Shoots dont get any help for their stock. Farmers can shoot dogs if they are after their stock im told?

It's historical and the fact that Cormorants have a different protected status. Dogs are domestic animals so are not covered by Nature Conservation protection.

ideally, it shouldn't make a difference- but it does!

just saw in the news, that a phsycopath who murdered and cut up his own mother, just got 9 years??????? ( just saying?)

 

[6pointer]

Sad day for George and all who are effected by this . The law is the law and while we sometimes don't agree with it we do need to abide by it. In my opinion no one should ever be put in a position were they cannot protect there lively hood. RSPB / RSPCA we know they are not worth talking about and make there money from the gullibility of others.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

RIPA only applies to public bodies of which the RSPB / RSPCA are not, both being registered charities.
Had it been a public body covertly filming the offence RIPA would almost certainly have applied. Their actions would have fallen within the realms of directed surveillance.

What is interesting in this case is the Court upon examining the evidence have obviously deemed it admissible, as mentioned above this will now serve as a stated case for future prosecutions.

Given the lengths these organizations are willing to go to, and now with what looks like the support of the Courts, any keeper involved in BOP persecution needs their heads examined.

Surely this is a wake-up call.

 

[RED-DOT]

"Given the lengths these organizations are willing to go to, and now with what looks like the support of the Courts, any keeper involved in BOP persecution needs their heads examined."

No change there then...? Was it "legal" prior to this idiot being filmed??

 

[countrryboy]

Aye but according to some 'we're all at it' with the open access in scotland its going to be open season for every tom dick and harry with an axe to grind putting cameras all over estates with no permission and no evidence or even intellegance that crimes may be committed.
How much damage will be caused by busybodies walking round release pens or wild bird nesting areas by folk going to check there camera's esp if there wlking there dog for 'cover' (when they see nothig will they just leave the pen gates shut/wire uncut?)
we have had a busy body checking our birds in the pen before, a retired charties investigator. He fills his retirment by snooping round local shoots. and as far as i know nothing u can do to stop it
And as someone said earlier may have massive implications on people putting hidden cameras up all over the place for all sorts of random reasons.

Lets hope in the future they start using evidence from camera's to start prosecuting quad/farm theives (dare i even say travellers) i mean some of them were fillmed for a tv program poaching deer yet nothing happened??


Just wondering these landowners up north with the 'No rspb' signs, can they actually ban them? Or only in offical duties but the private individuals could still walk over the ground on there own time?


The really sad fact following on fom BS's post is if u sat in a pub with a rspb employee/supporter (apart from the bosses/pr dept) u would probably have 90-95% of the same ideas/common interests and it only splits when it comes to killing animals, no matter how squeky clean shooting (but BoP persecution does not help as every case will be exaggerated and flung back at us) is or how much good publicity we generate about all the good work shooters do (purdey awards, silver lapwing etc) or how much money they generate for poorer rural areas they will never agree with shooting.
The best we cn hope for is they see us as a neccessary evil, but even that would be a massive step forward as atleast they accept all the good work we're doing

Ps well said BS, i hope the fella recovers fom it, do feel sorry for him.

As for vicarious laibility, may be different with an employee, but when u lease a sporting right (well atleast on our shoot/estate) all the tennants signed a disclaimer saying no wildlife crimes will be committed and u will follow all the GL conditions, marking snares/crow traps etc

 

[Yoda]

I think I must of missed something in this case. Having read some of the posts it seems it is the end of shooting as we know it. Almost the end of the world.
Did he break the law?
Has he been punished?
Learn by his mistake, yes HIS mistake.
DONT BREAK THE LAW AND YOU WONT BE PUNISHED.
I repeat END OF