Busting the myth of camouflage clothing

gixer1 · Oct 23, 2020

I was recently watching a friend and the resident stalker stalk up a hill on the stags, my friend (at the rear) had a full swedteam camo suit, and the stalker a tweed pattern full suit. It’s amazing how light in colour it is against the background (this photo is about 2500 yards away but 10x mag) but I’d say the tweed stood out more as the camp had darker patches.

but the main thing I noticed is how bright any movements of hands or faces was, so gloves of some sort and keeping your face down is a good idea!

Regards,
Gixer

Foxyboy43 · Oct 23, 2020

gixer1 said:
I was recently watching a friend and the resident stalker stalk up a hill on the stags, my friend (at the rear) had a full swedteam camo suit, and the stalker a tweed pattern full suit. It’s amazing how light in colour it is against the background (this photo is about 2500 yards away but 10x mag) but I’d say the tweed stood out more as the camp had darker patches.
G
but the main thing I noticed is how bright any movements of hands or faces was, so gloves of some sort and keeping your face down is a good idea!

Regards,
Gixer

Yep - very interesting observation. I can't speak with any great authority on deer's eyesight other than an understanding they see "colours" differently than us and that human face/hands are particularly obvious against any background especially on a sunny day - couple either of them with movement and you are defo busted! I spent a day at pigeons recently with a pal who set up his hide against a tall hedge opposite me, maybe 250yds away. I was stunned to see how well his hide and camo clothes worked but how obvious his face and hands were - especially when coupled with the "flash" from his 12 bore barrels every time he swung it. Mask and gloves are de rigeur from now on!

Foxyboy43 · Oct 23, 2020

Oldstalker said:
All the above is good advice because deer are prey species they have highly developed senses to allow them time to run away.

The military have 5 principles in camouflage:- shape, shine, shadow, silhouette and texture/colour reinforcing the points mentioned above.

With the exception of sight almost all deer species remaining senses are significantly more acute than our own. Deer use their vision for 2 primary purposes; to see what hey are eating and to avoid becoming prey. So their vision head down, and therefore looking up as they see is designed for looking at variations in the vegetation at (very) short range. That is why when they think they have seen you most deer species appear to look down their noses at you as they are using their distance vision to try to focus on you. Roe especially seem to be able to take "mental photographs" which is why when suspicious they will appear to dip their heads (as though to feed without actually doing so) only to raise them sharply a few seconds later in order to look around again. If things have changed perceptibly they will flee.

Their hearing is not only better than ours it seems to be able to tell distance as well as angle hence the success of calling deer. Whereas we can (with good hearing unlike mine now) say to within about 15º a deer will say it was in that direction, give or take 1 or 2 º and it was 450 metres away.
Similarly their smell seems able to detect intensity as well as source unless confused by something very similar (eg sheepfoil).

So for the stalker movement is the key; camouflage is useful and can be effective. The more modern ones tend to confuse the eye by printing shapes which confuse the focus of the observer's eye as well as by trying to break shape. Shine is obvious, especially with lenses. Shadow - it is often better to sit in the shadow in front of cover, which also breaks up the shape, as to sit behind it and then not to be able to see oneself. In similar vein one must remember that although one may not be visible oneself one's shadow maybe and when the sun is lower in the sky (at dawn and dusk) the shadows are invariably longer. Silhouette is obvious. Colour is also important and one should remember that one's hands are nearly as large as one's face. But there does appear to be an element of colour blindness to some parts of the spectrum hence the success of both blue and orange/dayglo disruptive patterned camouflages widely in use in southern Africa and in northern America.

I hope this helps throw a little light on a murky subject.

Interesting and very informative post - thank you Oldstalker. The other post re grey german uniforms should be seen against what the opposing French were wearing initially - bright blue and even brighter red - as worn well before rifle developments and spitzer bullets made distance much less of a shield.

bally · Oct 23, 2020

hunting Camo is more to catch the wearer than the animals in my opinion. :tiphat:

stubear · Oct 23, 2020

JMikeyH said:
Earthy/drab colours are more than adequate. No need to go for specifically camouflaged gear but if that's the style you prefer then no harm done.
The main thing is speed of movement, sound and paying attention to the wind. All the camouflage in the world won't help if you're stepping on every twig and always got the wind at your back

^^ This. 100% this.

Never bothered with camo, always just worn drab green/brown clothing and thats been more than adequate.

One of the things I have found is useful though is to get a buff and some gloves for each season - when you're stalking in nice and quiet to a high seat at sparrows fart your face and hands light up like a new penny in a chimney sweeps ear hole (or at least mine do being of Caucasian background!). Wearing a buff and gloves keeps any glow-y bits under wraps.

Presumably by the same logic one would not recommend stopping for a pee just before getting in said high seat so as not so share the deer off with a glow in the dark snake! Or earthworm if its a cold day..!

jubnut · Oct 23, 2020

stubear said:
^^ This. 100% this.

Never bothered with camo, always just worn drab green/brown clothing and thats been more than adequate.

One of the things I have found is useful though is to get a buff and some gloves for each season - when you're stalking in nice and quiet to a high seat at sparrows fart your face and hands light up like a new penny in a chimney sweeps ear hole (or at least mine do being of Caucasian background!). Wearing a buff and gloves keeps any glow-y bits under wraps.

Presumably by the same logic one would not recommend stopping for a pee just before getting in said high seat so as not so share the deer off with a glow in the dark snake! Or earthworm if its a cold day..!

BryanDC · Oct 23, 2020

It's not law here but most hunters wear at least some blaze orange so we can see one another. However when duck hunting in the reed beds I always use a mask to hide my face and a plain hat instead of the usual blaze cap as the ducks can definitely see the orange.

Mungo · Oct 23, 2020

The right camo is effective. You need something that breaks up your outline - so something with reasonably irregular patches of different shades that intersect with your edges.

The simplest is just wearing a jacket and trousers that are a different shade. So rather than one human shaped blob, you have 2 less human shaped blobs. But a good disruptive pattern camo takes that further. The key is then not to use a camo that is so fine grained that at distance it starts looking like one blob again. Things like marpat and some of the other digital patterns fall into this - they work well very close, but resolve into a single blob at distance.

However, you also need something that minimises overall contrast with the background. So it needs a dull, generalist base colour. It doesn’t really matter what this is, provided it’s not got any blue in it.

So - a dull base colour and quite large irregular disruptive markings. Anything like this WILL be effective against any vertebrate, regardless of visual system. Clearly you need to make sure you do everything else too - wind, movement, noise etc. But a good camo will buy you some room for error. I have seen this enough times now to be convinced.

One thing to be very much avoided is the camos that try to provide an exact mimic of some specific setting. The worst ones are the various RealTree camos. They are explicitly designed to catch people, and only incidentally adopt the basic principles of good camo.

My personal opinion is that the following are effective camos, though they still need to be matched with an appropriate context:

MTP (and the other multi cam derivatives) - reasonable generalist pattern, a little light for forest or winter moorland. Lovely for spring/summer.

DPM - reasonable generalist pattern. A little dark for farmland, open grass hills. Perfect for forest, low light and winter moorland.

Flecktarn - very good forest pattern, but resolves into a single blob at shorter distances than the above. Good for wet heather.

Some of the American proprietary patterns (KUIU and Firslite in particular) - some of these are outstanding generalist patterns. They have actually had wildlife sensory physiologists involved when designing them. They have really understood the need to break up the body at distance. The absolute best on the market, I would say, is Firstlite Fusion.

bogtrotter · Oct 23, 2020

gixer1 said:
I was recently watching a friend and the resident stalker stalk up a hill on the stags, my friend (at the rear) had a full swedteam camo suit, and the stalker a tweed pattern full suit. It’s amazing how light in colour it is against the background (this photo is about 2500 yards away but 10x mag) but I’d say the tweed stood out more as the camp had darker patches.

but the main thing I noticed is how bright any movements of hands or faces was, so gloves of some sort and keeping your face down is a good idea!

Regards,
Gixer

If his tweed suit was standing out he had the wrong colour pattern for the environment no one pattern will suit every area
I know of an estate tweed that is made up of blues and greys with a pink stripe stands out like a sore thumb but not on
Its home ground the estate has a lot of slate on the hill and in that environment it just disappears .
Likewise an estate I was on he hills were mainly grass and the estate tweed was a lovet green with two different shades of green stripes through it .What works in one area will not necessarily work in an other.
To my mind thats what is wrong with standard camouflage not enough variety for different situations
You are 100% correct about hands and face especially when thebsun is shinning a wide brimmed hat will help to keep your face in shadow and there are plenty gloves on the market that will do the job.
I as a rule don't wear gloves after more or less a lifetime in the job my skin is rather weathered and doesn't stand out
much.

CarlW · Oct 23, 2020

Like @bogtrotter, I wear tweed, which I find more than sufficiently camouflaging for my needs.

It has the added benefit of being warm when wet. Couple it with a merino base layer (and mid-layers if required by the season) and you can handle pretty much anything Scotland can throw at a man.

For very warm days, I do exchange my jacket for a mil-surp MTP smock given to me by a friend. Good camo and very breathable.

jer · Oct 23, 2020

The hill in Scotland is for many not the easiest of places to get an unnoticed approach into the reds and many think you need cammo or suchlike to have a chance, but I know a landowner who every year for decades has shot many many deer on his estate and his choice of stalking apparel for at least eight years that I know of was a bright pink cerise rain jacket that was left behind by one of his guests. He also has white hair and a full white beard, has never worn a face covering or gloves usually just a beany hat and to the human eye stands out for miles like a sore thumb, however he has never been disadvantaged by what he wears. Scent and movement are what deer notice.

Big_Sparky · Oct 23, 2020

Military camouflage such as DPM - as the name suggests (Disruptive Pattern Material) isn’t necessarily designed to be the same colour as your surroundings but to disrupt your pattern. Hence why you might add some foliage etc to helmet, shoulders etc - scrim netting or whatever. Taking that to the full extent would be going full on ghillie suit - perhaps a little too carried away for a deer!

Personally, whether you’re stalking a deer or an enemy section key things like the 3 S’s (shape, shine and silhouette) are more important than choice of colour or design. If the wind is the wrong way, you move like a herd of elephants and are followed by a brass band - you’ll possibly find even a handmade £2,000 HarkilaDeerSwedTweedBlaser Team outfit won’t help!

Mungo · Oct 23, 2020

Scent and movement are important.

However - if you match the background well (no sharp contrast), and your outline is broken up, you can actually get away with a fair amount of movement, especially at distance.

I’m sure many of us have been able to move in to groups of deer when we’ve been in full view, but by keeping the hill/tree line behind us and moving slowly, have been able to close distance from hundreds of metres to a shootable range.

markha · Oct 23, 2020

You can stalk in a hi-viz jacket if you want, it is more about movement and smell than anything else.
Conceal your movement and conceal your scent are the best camo

CarlW · Oct 23, 2020

On the subject of movement, I find deer to be more forgiving of macro-movement (i.e. walking) than they are of micro-movement (i.e. pointing or waving). I have been out with a few people where I have been sorely tempted to threaten to cut their fookin' arms off...

Mungo · Oct 23, 2020

markha said:
You can stalk in a hi-viz jacket if you want, it is more about movement and smell than anything else.
Conceal your movement and conceal your scent are the best camo

I disagree - or at least partially. Yes, you can stalk in hi vis, but it makes it a lot harder. You have to use cover much more, and stay dead still when they’re looking.

But when you wear something that means you don’t stand out against the background, you can get away with being in the open more, and can get away with slow constant movement against that background.

This can make the difference stalking things like hinds on the open hill or fallow in big fields.

Alantoo · Oct 23, 2020

bogtrotter said:
If his tweed suit was standing out he had the wrong colour pattern for the environment no one pattern will suit every area
I know of an estate tweed that is made up of blues and greys with a pink stripe stands out like a sore thumb but not on
Its home ground the estate has a lot of slate on the hill and in that environment it just disappears .
Likewise an estate I was on he hills were mainly grass and the estate tweed was a lovet green with two different shades of green stripes through it .What works in one area will not necessarily work in an other.
To my mind thats what is wrong with standard camouflage not enough variety for different situations
You are 100% correct about hands and face especially when thebsun is shinning a wide brimmed hat will help to keep your face in shadow and there are plenty gloves on the market that will do the job.
I as a rule don't wear gloves after more or less a lifetime in the job my skin is rather weathered and doesn't stand out
much.

Was there any change of estate pattern for the seasons? Were there summer and winter suits? Or were the tweed colours selected biased towards one part of the year? Stag as opposed to Roe Buck season for example,

We have a painter friend up beyond Ullapool that we stay with on occasion...in the early days he made this living painting landscapes for tourists. So as tourists we chose one which was more abstract but perfectly represented the hill behind the studio, hold it in front of that backdrop and it would have disappeared...we had a real shock when we got home to the soft green Cotswolds and took out a strident, garish, contrasty canvas from its wrap!

Alan

Big_Sparky · Oct 23, 2020

This comment is clearly anecdotal and wiser folks may have a more scientific answer - but it certainly seems to me that there is, at least, an element of deer “sensing” or being able to differentiate a threat. I’ve worked for a short while for a haulage company just outside of Oban on a timber crane wagon. A lot of the work we did was on the same estate that I’ve done some basic ghillie work for. You could be sat in the crane cab working away loading trailers with logs and the reds would pay between little or no attention. An occasional sideways glance. Equally if I ever visit my pal on the same estate you often drive past a good 20-30 deer grazing in the lower fields - many time I’ve stopped to take a picture - they don’t bat an eyelid. Get up on the hill and unzip the rifle from the bag..... and a very different story!!

Indeed, two days of blank red stag stalking last week and then turn up in our yard for work on Sunday morning and two roe bucks just stood in front of the car - didn’t even wander off when I fired the wagon up..... I’m convinced they were chuckling..... “look at that tosser - he’s left his rifle at home”

TomDeer · Oct 23, 2020

johngryphon said:
I can go and shoot a deer whilst wearing a pink frock too

Do send us a picture to prove it John

CarlW · Oct 23, 2020

Big_Sparky said:
This comment is clearly anecdotal and wiser folks may have a more scientific answer - but it certainly seems to me that there is, at least, an element of deer “sensing” or being able to differentiate a threat. I’ve worked for a short while for a haulage company just outside of Oban on a timber crane wagon. A lot of the work we did was on the same estate that I’ve done some basic ghillie work for. You could be sat in the crane cab working away loading trailers with logs and the reds would pay between little or no attention. An occasional sideways glance. Equally if I ever visit my pal on the same estate you often drive past a good 20-30 deer grazing in the lower fields - many time I’ve stopped to take a picture - they don’t bat an eyelid. Get up on the hill and unzip the rifle from the bag..... and a very different story!!

Indeed, two days of blank red stag stalking last week and then turn up in our yard for work on Sunday morning and two roe bucks just stood in front of the car - didn’t even wander off when I fired the wagon up..... I’m convinced they were chuckling..... “look at that tosser - he’s left his rifle at home”

Always worth speaking to forwarder-drivers for intel. They seem to be invisible to deer. As are walkers with red anoraks and 'trekking poles'.

Busting the myth of camouflage clothing

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads