provarmint
Well-Known Member
Can someone enlighten me on the law regarding .22rf semi auto pistols, who can shoot said pistol? Is it only the person/persons with it on their licence allowed to shoot it, i.e. no letting others shoot it at the range.
.22 semi auto pistol
- Thread starter provarmint
- Start date
Are we talking hanguns or are we talking what are referred to a long barrelled pistols?
With regard to handguns the two Acts that effectively "banned" handguns were slightly different. The Tory Act banned centrefire handguns but still allowed at secure ranges the use of any .22LR handguns of any date of manufacture. It did NOT allow these to be removed form the secure range and taken home. So the myth that people would have been able to carry on exactly as before having their handguns at home (but .22LR handguns only) is just that. A myth.
The Labour Act brought .22LR handguns under the same restricted regime that the Tory Act had placed centrefire handguns under. That is the ONLY handguns permitted (excepting trophies of war and those for humane dispatch) would be "historic" handguns made before 1919 or those made later only if "of technical interest" and at ONLY (then) six designated ranges for such in the whole of the UK. An none permitted to be removed from the designated range at which it was kept and a modern Smith & Wesson Model 17 or a Ruger Mk 1 would not have been eligible as being too "young" and of no technical interest. But a Sako Tri-Ace possibly and ditto a Colt 1911 .22/45 perhaps?
But back to the OP's question and again talking handguns and not long barrelled pistols. Possession means with regard to such not only ownership but having the thing "to hand". So, yes, as far as I am aware since the two Acts the ONLY person who can shoot said handgun (which would be either "historic" or "of technical interest") would be the person who held it on their licence and ONLY in any case at the desiugnated range at which the thing was kept.
With regard to the exceptions mentioned of a handgun for humane dispatch then that may (and I do not know) be allowed toi be used by another for humane dispatch according to the conditions written on the FAC of the individual who is its owner. But I am here not at all speaking with any more than speculation.
So the final thought? Could several people share joint ownership of but one single .22LR pistol (of "historic" or "techincal" interest) held at the same one designated range? I understand that the de facto state of affairs is that they cannot as the Home Office are wise to any attempt to use such a ruse to create effectively the club pistol of pre-1996. And so police forces will not issue such multiple FACs to multiple people for but the one handgun.
With regard to long barrelled pistols I do not know what the law allows.
With regard to handguns the two Acts that effectively "banned" handguns were slightly different. The Tory Act banned centrefire handguns but still allowed at secure ranges the use of any .22LR handguns of any date of manufacture. It did NOT allow these to be removed form the secure range and taken home. So the myth that people would have been able to carry on exactly as before having their handguns at home (but .22LR handguns only) is just that. A myth.
The Labour Act brought .22LR handguns under the same restricted regime that the Tory Act had placed centrefire handguns under. That is the ONLY handguns permitted (excepting trophies of war and those for humane dispatch) would be "historic" handguns made before 1919 or those made later only if "of technical interest" and at ONLY (then) six designated ranges for such in the whole of the UK. An none permitted to be removed from the designated range at which it was kept and a modern Smith & Wesson Model 17 or a Ruger Mk 1 would not have been eligible as being too "young" and of no technical interest. But a Sako Tri-Ace possibly and ditto a Colt 1911 .22/45 perhaps?
But back to the OP's question and again talking handguns and not long barrelled pistols. Possession means with regard to such not only ownership but having the thing "to hand". So, yes, as far as I am aware since the two Acts the ONLY person who can shoot said handgun (which would be either "historic" or "of technical interest") would be the person who held it on their licence and ONLY in any case at the desiugnated range at which the thing was kept.
With regard to the exceptions mentioned of a handgun for humane dispatch then that may (and I do not know) be allowed toi be used by another for humane dispatch according to the conditions written on the FAC of the individual who is its owner. But I am here not at all speaking with any more than speculation.
So the final thought? Could several people share joint ownership of but one single .22LR pistol (of "historic" or "techincal" interest) held at the same one designated range? I understand that the de facto state of affairs is that they cannot as the Home Office are wise to any attempt to use such a ruse to create effectively the club pistol of pre-1996. And so police forces will not issue such multiple FACs to multiple people for but the one handgun.
With regard to long barrelled pistols I do not know what the law allows.
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provarmint
Well-Known Member
Sorry, long barreled pistol.
Noted! There's still us old gits for whom pistols means those pre-1996 pistols and revolvers and not the post-1996 abominations with daft length barrels and stupid butt rods or whatever they are called.
12gsnapcaps
Well-Known Member
Only the owner of the LBP can handle/touch/shoot it. Same for section 1 shotguns.
AFAIK this is a quirk of the wording of the law, rather than a wilful state of affairs by the powers that be. Whilst I would never suggest breaking this law or any law, I have been lead to believe that, assuming no malice, licensing authorities view it reasonably/with-discretion if they are informed of a breach. My old FEO told me he knows people use each others LBP’s at clubs because they aren’t aware, and he wasn’t particularly bothered. However this is one FEO in one jurisdiction.
AFAIK this is a quirk of the wording of the law, rather than a wilful state of affairs by the powers that be. Whilst I would never suggest breaking this law or any law, I have been lead to believe that, assuming no malice, licensing authorities view it reasonably/with-discretion if they are informed of a breach. My old FEO told me he knows people use each others LBP’s at clubs because they aren’t aware, and he wasn’t particularly bothered. However this is one FEO in one jurisdiction.
Yep, when they changed the legislation, they pretty much missed a bit and it's never been amended.
Sec 1 shotguns and LBP's can only be used by the owner, I think the only exception is RFD's for "testing purposes"
If I own a K22 LBP and you own an identical k22 LBP we can "legally" only shoot the one we each own. It's ridiculous.
Sec 1 shotguns and LBP's can only be used by the owner, I think the only exception is RFD's for "testing purposes"
If I own a K22 LBP and you own an identical k22 LBP we can "legally" only shoot the one we each own. It's ridiculous.
The law mentions you have to have LBP on your FAC.
Not the LBP.
So if you have an LBP slot then that's ok. otherwise you'd have to buy it first before you could even hold it.
There are other exemptions that permit temporary possession. It's just you cannot use the HO Club exemption as you excuse as there're no "pistol clubs" any more.
Not the LBP.
So if you have an LBP slot then that's ok. otherwise you'd have to buy it first before you could even hold it.
There are other exemptions that permit temporary possession. It's just you cannot use the HO Club exemption as you excuse as there're no "pistol clubs" any more.
Its not strictly correct to say that Sec1 shotguns cant be used by anyone other than the owner.
The legal wording is to distinguish Sec1 FAC shotguns not being "borrowed" by an SGC user in the same way a Sec2 shotgun can be legally borrowed for up to 72 hours without notification.
Use under supervision is no different to any other Sec 1 firearm.
www.gov.uk
Use of Sec1 firearms within the confines of a Rifle/Pistol Club are also clearly defined:
17.3 Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely in connection with target shooting on the club’s range, or other ranges which it may use. However, a person cannot possess a firearm under this exemption if it is a class of firearm for which the club is not approved. It should also be noted that section 15(1) of the 1988 Act, as amended, does not apply to the use of long barrelled pistols or section 1 shot guns used for target shooting, as it only allows possession of rifles or muzzle-loading pistols by members of suitably approved clubs. Accordingly, club approval cannot be extended to cover the use of these firearms (see also paragraph 17.12).
The legal wording is to distinguish Sec1 FAC shotguns not being "borrowed" by an SGC user in the same way a Sec2 shotgun can be legally borrowed for up to 72 hours without notification.
Use under supervision is no different to any other Sec 1 firearm.
Guide on firearms licensing law (accessible)
Authorised lending and possession of firearms for hunting etc
6.18 Section 11A of the 1968 Act allows a non-certificate holder (‘the borrower’) to borrow and possess a rifle or a shot gun from another person (‘the lender’) on private premises lawfully, only if they meet the following four conditions and if, in the case of a rifle, the borrower is aged 17 or over:- (i) That the borrowing and possession of the rifle or shot gun are for either hunting animals or shooting game or vermin, and/or for shooting at artificial targets;
- (ii) That the lender must be aged 18 or over, holds a certificate for the borrowed firearm and either has the legal right to allow others to enter the premises for hunting animals or shooting game or vermin, or has written authorisation from such a person to lend the rifle or shot gun on the premises;
- (iii) That the borrower’s possession and use of the rifle or shot gun complies with the conditions placed on the lender’s certificate; and
- (iv) That the lender must be present during the period during which the rifle or shot gun is borrowed. Alternatively, the borrower must be in the presence of another person who is aged 18 or over as described under either subsection 11A(3)(c)(i) or (ii) of the 1968 Act, provided that they hold a certificate in respect of the borrowed rifle or shot gun.
- The ammunition is for use with the same firearm;
- The ammunition purchased or acquired by the borrower does not exceed the quantity of ammunition that the lender is authorised to possess at the time; and
- The borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with the conditions placed on the lender’s certificate.
Use of Sec1 firearms within the confines of a Rifle/Pistol Club are also clearly defined:
17.3 Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely in connection with target shooting on the club’s range, or other ranges which it may use. However, a person cannot possess a firearm under this exemption if it is a class of firearm for which the club is not approved. It should also be noted that section 15(1) of the 1988 Act, as amended, does not apply to the use of long barrelled pistols or section 1 shot guns used for target shooting, as it only allows possession of rifles or muzzle-loading pistols by members of suitably approved clubs. Accordingly, club approval cannot be extended to cover the use of these firearms (see also paragraph 17.12).
That is correct - did my short range pistol course recently and this was part of it.
HO approved clubs can hold small bore and fullbore rifles and muzzle loading pistols, but LBPs/LBRs can only be used or handled by the person who’s ticket they are on.
Where does it say that?
Unfortunately not quite right.
A shot gun as defined by the firearms act:
"(i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;
(ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges"
So, a S1 shotgun is neither a rifle nor a "shotgun" for the purposes of the act, which is why you can't borrow and lend them.
I cannot find it now, so either I was mistaken or whichever guidance I saw it in has changed or is eluding me.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Or Germany or the whole EU for that matter, oh Brexit put a stop to that freedom too.Utterly daft situation all round and all because of one madman and lax policing.
Just move to NI as several of our club members did in order to keep their pistols - Channel Islands and Isle of Man are other options of course..
But there is mention rifle clubs and rifles when it comes to 'lending' and 'possession/use without an FAC' so that has relevance.
Yes, forget about everything else in your life. It's not so easy to just up and move for the sake of a hobby.
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