All credit to you for raising an issue of conscience. There’s little difference between taking risky shots that are liable to cause injury and suffering and knowingly culling adults with dependents and leaving the young to starve. I’m not claiming there’s an easy yes/no answer to this when it comes to wildlife management (deer and foxes), but it’s right to be aware of the choices we make and the consequences for animal suffering. We each have our own red lines around this as we are the only ones that have to live with our choices - it’s not for anyone else to say that our individual choice is wrong.I do a bit of pest control for a few farmers when required.
One farmer has a small chicken farm. They are semi free range- having the run of 50m x 30m or so. There is some vague sort of fence- not a proper one- and a decent number of the chickens wander around the farm outside of the fence.
From time to time- he looses a few to a fox.
He lost a couple yesterday- and he wants me to come and shoot all foxes that I can call into his ground.
My problem is-
Where does his ethical responsibility to have a fox proof barrier end, and my responsibility to shoot them begin?
The fox didnt get into the coup- or the run- the chickens got out- as they do every day with ease and the fox is likely feeding young at the moment- and cant resist KFC easy pickings.
I dont particularly like fox shooting- they are just as sentient as deer and our lovely pet dogs- and they dont do anything more cruel than a terrier would in the same situation. But I understand needs must at times.
However- the thought of orphaning the cubs at this age really doesnt appeal. I dont think they will be able to survive alone at the moment- and shooting one parent will likely place pressure on the other to come to KFC even more frequently.
Their earth isnt on this chaps land. I dont know where it is in truth- but finding it wouldnt be easy. So dealing with the cubs having shot the parents would be difficult. I would also find it distasteful- theres not much difference between them and my puppy.
Ultimately - do i shoot 2 adult foxes, allow a number of cubs to gradually starve to death, for the sake of a few chickens - so the farmer doesnt have to build a proper fence.
Who else wrestles with this ? Is there an answer i havent considered ?
One option is i suppose is to shoot the foxes before they breed. Or give the permission up to someone who doesnt care what they orphan.
It doesn't help that every time I visit at least half my time is spent being talked at by the farmer who's so narcissistic and self absorbed I dont think he knows anything about me. I doubt he knows where I live or my surname.
The more I write this- the more I think im too soft for fox shootingit just seems a waste of life.
Am i being unreasonable ? Am i too soft for fox shooting ?
- Thread starter billy_boyle_2010
- Start date
for my two pence worth, given they are potentially impacting on the livelihood of chicken farmer and shooting them is justifiable, just like if it was a game shoot and they were taking the birds. It’s pest control.
Unlike the sport of calling them in on arable land where no livestock is at risk just for the enjoyment of shooting them, that does feel a little less acceptable with the advantage of todays modern technology.
Unlike the sport of calling them in on arable land where no livestock is at risk just for the enjoyment of shooting them, that does feel a little less acceptable with the advantage of todays modern technology.
Crowstalker
Well-Known Member
By the sounds of it the landowner is being a bit lax with his livestock fencing. I agree with you not shooting all tbe foxes you can find especially at this time of the year. To be honest I would only shoot a fox if it was strictly necessary. You could always "go out looking" for the foxes and not actually shoot them if you want to try and please the farmer but not contradict your own ethical beliefs.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
You don't know fox's and are comparing them to pets or domesticated animals.
You don't understand their social structure.
You also don't know the tenacity of cubs and their ability to survive. They have an abundance of food at their disposal at this time of year.
As for the land owner, he's a lazy arse. You don't need folk like that.
You don't understand their social structure.
You also don't know the tenacity of cubs and their ability to survive. They have an abundance of food at their disposal at this time of year.
As for the land owner, he's a lazy arse. You don't need folk like that.
the_greenman
Well-Known Member
Considering the time of year most cubs are out and about making their own ways in the world.
If you refuse to help the farmer out you might end up losing your permission to the next knock on the door he gets. The roll on effect from that is it could impact your firearms renewal if you need another piece of land as "good reason".
You could always tell the farmer you didn't get any safe shot until you're happy that you likely won't be leaving any cubs to starve in an earth, then deal with the visitors.
If you refuse to help the farmer out you might end up losing your permission to the next knock on the door he gets. The roll on effect from that is it could impact your firearms renewal if you need another piece of land as "good reason".
You could always tell the farmer you didn't get any safe shot until you're happy that you likely won't be leaving any cubs to starve in an earth, then deal with the visitors.
NoIDeer
Well-Known Member
Saw a photo of the result of some vital pest contol yesterday two adults and six cubs, the cubs weren't much smaller than the vixen.
I am not a foxer but I'd try to keep the farmer happy in this instance and I'd try not to be too quick to judge how others choose to run their business too.
I am not a foxer but I'd try to keep the farmer happy in this instance and I'd try not to be too quick to judge how others choose to run their business too.
billy_boyle_2010
Well-Known Member
Im not sure im making an argument am I?
But yes- you're right- i can choose to do it or not.
I don't have the issue (you do) however we stopped ferreting as soon as we found young so that was our gauge. You swerved the nesting pigeons part in my post as both feed their squabs and are often out finding food as the young need more food.
With respect just don't shoot them and you will soon be free of your hand wringing problem
i dont get many opportunities on pigeons- but the people i know don't shoot them when they have dependent young.
Hmmm cryptic. Im not sure i know what you mean by "help"? Other than land permission for a FAC- which i have certainly never asked this chap to get involved with. Is that what you meant ?
Then pull the plug and get on with some other farmer but just be mind full that they might want something the same.
Stop wasting your time there
billy_boyle_2010
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say diddly squat.....but im surprised you're speaking so certainly. Doesn't their time of birth vary a little ? Cubs size certainly does. There must be a month or more between the oldest and youngest. Does every square foot of the countryside have sufficient beetle, worm and carrion population to support a number of orphaned cubs ?
This time of year the cubs (or they are with me) will normally be out and about around the earth entrance learning the ropes.
If you shoot the dog and vixen they'll come out for a look eventually. Not much sport in it it, but pest control isn't about sport.
If the chickens are a source of income for the farmer, just consider its money out of his pocket. I'd not like someone coming taking ££££s out of my income during a night time raid
If I knew where the earth was- I would do this for sure. I think i will ask the farmer to ask if I can mooch about the neighbours grounds looking for the earth.
Farmer runs it as a loss, while cooking the books to pretend a profit, in an attempt to get planning for illegal buildings, all whilst claiming as many benefits as he can.
No stalking here. Just rats and fox.
Its been years and I havent had a referral. But you're right. I should have got them in mating season.
definitely let someone else have the permission.
what happens when you can't sleep at night over this? your choice is the ghost of orphaned foxes or the ghost of slaughtered chickens or even the ghost of Christmas past
Thanks chaps- I'm going to try and find rhe earth- if I can- i will deal with the family- all while suggesting the farmer reinforces his fences a little!
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
You might be a bit late for that, they have been in the rape for a few weeks now around my neck of the woods, they don't hang about in the holes any longer than they need to, it's warm, and plenty of food for them, mice, voles, baby leverets...
Edit: I've known independent cubs in March, very early, but I've never encountered late-born cubs.
crow killer
Well-Known Member
I can completely sympathise with your feelings about starving cubs. You must shoot as many as possible before middle of April.
I think big cubs would slowly die ,left on their own without having food brought in by adults. I once saw a fox go into one of my woods, I put the dog in and it came running out and I bowled it over with 12 bore, it was a big cub and had been very starved, obviously lost its parents. Once cubs are out and about on their own then kill as many as possible, no bad feelings about that.
I give up about 3rd week in April, . If you could find where the cubs are then ,could maybe have a go for them, that would be best, and get that fence fettled up, leaving it is inviting more losses.
I think big cubs would slowly die ,left on their own without having food brought in by adults. I once saw a fox go into one of my woods, I put the dog in and it came running out and I bowled it over with 12 bore, it was a big cub and had been very starved, obviously lost its parents. Once cubs are out and about on their own then kill as many as possible, no bad feelings about that.
I give up about 3rd week in April, . If you could find where the cubs are then ,could maybe have a go for them, that would be best, and get that fence fettled up, leaving it is inviting more losses.
Making holes in things
Active Member
Is there a breed of dog that will protect the chickens, not because he wants them for himself, but for the farmer ? I know diddly about foxes but I personally, do not want to shoot things when it is 'puppy time'. Having said that, if it was my chicken farm . . . . . .
shakey jake
Well-Known Member
If he is trying to run at a loss, fencing would set him back a bit and could be used to dived plots going forward.
Foxes arent the reason he is loosing chickens and money
Foxes arent the reason he is loosing chickens and money
You would be surprised at how many things local people ask of me, like can I run the hedge trimmer along there road side hedge when I'm out cutting, to can the borrow some kinda hand tool, and anything in between, and yes the obvious would it be alright if they use me for there land permission. I would always advise it is best to keep a friendly farmer on side, as apposed to alienate them.
I had a similar thing recently with a farmer losing 2 chickens a day , lunch time raids, I watched a vixen clear a 7 foot Harris fencing to take chickens every day around 2ish , she took 12 birds over the week, the farmers wife said please don't shoot her as she must have cubs, I said she will clear you out and the cubs when big enough will join in , the farmers husband said please sort them out and don't tell her, I knew where the Den was , so 8 cans of dog food close by, the 17 Hornet ready I shot 8 cubs and the dog and vixen that afternoon, the cubs were slightly bigger than a cat , they new dropped on the spot and didn't suffer as well as the dog and vixen , sometimes you just have to keep the farmer happy or someone else will .
I had been trying to get on a farm for pigeon shooting when the farmer rang, I have a fox killing 2 partridges a night and eating them on the bales just leaving the bits, I have missed it 3 times can you give it a go.
Walked in the 1/2 mile with a different filter on the lamp, (they drove in with the gator)
Called and called then it come, a 200yd "don't **** this up Tim shot" Click bang whack.
Any chance of a go on the pigeons?
"Help your self"
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And then in another thread you worry about crows taking lapwing ? Foxes do that 5 times worse sadly
in my experience of when we used to keep chickens, if a fox gets in the chicken pen, they do not just take one or two and leave the rest a live to come back another day, they kill as many as they can leaving many dead behind and possibly a lucky one or two a live.
The idea that they kill and take two leaving the rest a live for another day is just not how it ever played out when we had chickens, it’s a massacre, feathers and bits of dead birds scattered across the pen.
The idea that they kill and take two leaving the rest a live for another day is just not how it ever played out when we had chickens, it’s a massacre, feathers and bits of dead birds scattered across the pen.
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