Am i being unreasonable ? Am i too soft for fox shooting ?

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Smellydog said:
You don't know fox's and are comparing them to pets or domesticated animals.
You don't understand their social structure.
You also don't know the tenacity of cubs and their ability to survive. They have an abundance of food at their disposal at this time of year.
As for the land owner, he's a lazy arse. You don't need folk like that.
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I am comparing them to all animals of a broadly similar intelligence.

You dont know whether I understand their social structure or not. If I shoot the adults in the area (including any relatives of the cubs)- they will have a hard time.

Indeed there is an abundance of food- if they know how to hunt it...... If they were born a little later than average- I do not know if they would survive, or have a slow unpleasant decline. Do you *know* they would all survive ? Do you *know* how old they are ? A couple of weeks younger than average and I think it would make a real difference.
 
Yes. Chance of finding earth minimal.

Cubs pretty big now and nigh on self sufficient. If you shoot the dog and Vixen odds on there will be non breeding foxs visiting the earth which will feed the cubs.
Secret is to be hard on foxs first 3 months of the year.
As to dealing with the farmer just tell him you need to be out on the job not chatting. Also sound like you need to be making regular visits to get a handle on the problem.
I posted on here last month an issue I was asked to resolve. Small holder with small flock and they use a 4 ft electric net fence in the paddock. Anyway took 3 visits to shoot the small Vixen which was the culprit. No visits seen.
I have only seen 3 cubs this year on all of my perms. 1 left.
Recently I have shot at least 6 dry vixens. I haven't a clue where they have come from.
D
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
I am comparing them to all animals of a broadly similar intelligence.

You dont know whether I understand their social structure or not. If I shoot the adults in the area (including any relatives of the cubs)- they will have a hard time.

Indeed there is an abundance of food- if they know how to hunt it...... If they were born a little later than average- I do not know if they would survive, or have a slow unpleasant decline. Do you *know* they would all survive ? Do you *know* how old they are ? A couple of weeks younger than average and I think it would make a real difference.
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Can you if not already join a target shooting club?
It clearly bugs you.
Re intelligence, a rival vixen may just simply kill the hypothetical cubs anyway. They aren't intelligent as we, they act on instincts.
Hormones drive their breeding, not family planning.
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
I do a bit of pest control for a few farmers when required.

One farmer has a small chicken farm. They are semi free range- having the run of 50m x 30m or so. There is some vague sort of fence- not a proper one- and a decent number of the chickens wander around the farm outside of the fence.

From time to time- he looses a few to a fox.

He lost a couple yesterday- and he wants me to come and shoot all foxes that I can call into his ground.

My problem is-

Where does his ethical responsibility to have a fox proof barrier end, and my responsibility to shoot them begin?

The fox didnt get into the coup- or the run- the chickens got out- as they do every day with ease and the fox is likely feeding young at the moment- and cant resist KFC easy pickings.

I dont particularly like fox shooting- they are just as sentient as deer and our lovely pet dogs- and they dont do anything more cruel than a terrier would in the same situation. But I understand needs must at times.

However- the thought of orphaning the cubs at this age really doesnt appeal. I dont think they will be able to survive alone at the moment- and shooting one parent will likely place pressure on the other to come to KFC even more frequently.

Their earth isnt on this chaps land. I dont know where it is in truth- but finding it wouldnt be easy. So dealing with the cubs having shot the parents would be difficult. I would also find it distasteful- theres not much difference between them and my puppy.

Ultimately - do i shoot 2 adult foxes, allow a number of cubs to gradually starve to death, for the sake of a few chickens - so the farmer doesnt have to build a proper fence.

Who else wrestles with this ? Is there an answer i havent considered ?

One option is i suppose is to shoot the foxes before they breed. Or give the permission up to someone who doesnt care what they orphan.

It doesn't help that every time I visit at least half my time is spent being talked at by the farmer who's so narcissistic and self absorbed I dont think he knows anything about me. I doubt he knows where I live or my surname.

The more I write this- the more I think im too soft for fox shooting 😞 it just seems a waste of life.
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Did you know that a Fox Cub will be picked up by the dog who will place them with one of his vixens they are far from strangers ? Seen it a few times! No farm fence or coop etc will Keep hungry foxes out 100% . In the wild the Fox rarely take just one hen , they kill the lot ! Man has tried to get rid of foxes from farmland for ever and a day . Mange and RTAs has likely killed more Foxes than a man with a gun
Still i don't go mad killing foxes where they are not doing any harm at all but that's a rare place ! BTW how many Farms can make their fences Fox Proof ? None i recon ! They can Dig under or even climb tall fences 6ft or more if motivated
 
Do what makes you happy, life is to short to me miserable… One of my farmers has no concept of or interest in Fox cub considerations, deer seasons or lack thereof
 
The other thing to think on, yes they're taking hens, but they'll also take red list ground nesters. En route to their chicken feast, if they stumble on nesting partridge fox isn't going to pass it up because it wants chicken tonight! Yeah is only doing what comes naturally. Equally, as a Countryman, were doing what comes naturally controlling them during nesting season. You kinda have to choose a side; ground nesters vs predators.... im on team perdix!!
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
I do a bit of pest control for a few farmers when required.

One farmer has a small chicken farm. They are semi free range- having the run of 50m x 30m or so. There is some vague sort of fence- not a proper one- and a decent number of the chickens wander around the farm outside of the fence.

From time to time- he looses a few to a fox.

He lost a couple yesterday- and he wants me to come and shoot all foxes that I can call into his ground.

My problem is-

Where does his ethical responsibility to have a fox proof barrier end, and my responsibility to shoot them begin?

The fox didnt get into the coup- or the run- the chickens got out- as they do every day with ease and the fox is likely feeding young at the moment- and cant resist KFC easy pickings.

I dont particularly like fox shooting- they are just as sentient as deer and our lovely pet dogs- and they dont do anything more cruel than a terrier would in the same situation. But I understand needs must at times.

However- the thought of orphaning the cubs at this age really doesnt appeal. I dont think they will be able to survive alone at the moment- and shooting one parent will likely place pressure on the other to come to KFC even more frequently.

Their earth isnt on this chaps land. I dont know where it is in truth- but finding it wouldnt be easy. So dealing with the cubs having shot the parents would be difficult. I would also find it distasteful- theres not much difference between them and my puppy.

Ultimately - do i shoot 2 adult foxes, allow a number of cubs to gradually starve to death, for the sake of a few chickens - so the farmer doesnt have to build a proper fence.

Who else wrestles with this ? Is there an answer i havent considered ?

One option is i suppose is to shoot the foxes before they breed. Or give the permission up to someone who doesnt care what they orphan.

It doesn't help that every time I visit at least half my time is spent being talked at by the farmer who's so narcissistic and self absorbed I dont think he knows anything about me. I doubt he knows where I live or my surname.

The more I write this- the more I think im too soft for fox shooting 😞 it just seems a waste of life.
Click to expand...
Just go there and don't shoot any foxes. Shoot to miss and scare them away
 
Bo Diddley said:
Are you in Norfolk, Billy? If so, I'll happily come and shoot as many as he wants... save you the torment.
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Im sure there will be a very big long line of people who will gladly help shoot the foxes for you if you can't do so yourself , but dont expect to hold onto the shooting right for long though
 
If the farmers decent enough to give you permission on the land for stalking etc I would feel like other have said you would have to feel obliged to help them on the fox front. I’m very much live and let live if they aren’t bothering anyone but in instances where it’s your job or landowner dictates you have to do what needs to be done 🦊
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
Even if he was paying i wouldnt do it at this time of year. A get some free eggs if he has an excess but I give them away- the smell from the sheds and all the rats puts me off 😞



This is the post i can most closely relate to. Hes not an arsehole. Just self absorbed. But its a good point- charging would def incentivise him to sort the fence out.



It is different to shooting a milky doe IMO because you cant distinguish milky does from other rabbits- and they can be milky at any time of year.

Foxes are rearing young for a few months only once a year.

Perhaps I am morally ccorrupable but if this chap had some stalking- i would provably be persuaded. Or at least more proactive in the fox mating season. Its just rats, a few troublesome birds and foxes. I do it out of loyalty really as it was one of my first perms.



How generous. Does the thought of orphaning cubs not bother you? Do you have dogs or other pets ?



Hmmmmm cat sized eh ? I guess its more a skill issue- are they hunting mice and voles atm or still eating worms ?
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Have you never shot a pregnant doe or doe/hind with follower ?
 
Its a funny old relationship when it comes to shooting. The farmer helps us by allowing us to shoot and on that basis we help them by controlling the animals/birds that cause them problems. They have a problem = you go and sort it out. That about sums it up and if you don't then don't be surprised if they get someone else.

I have some land where a few of us shoot and I have land where I'm the only one who shoots on there...any problems and I am straight out 👍
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
I do a bit of pest control for a few farmers when required.

One farmer has a small chicken farm. They are semi free range- having the run of 50m x 30m or so. There is some vague sort of fence- not a proper one- and a decent number of the chickens wander around the farm outside of the fence.

From time to time- he looses a few to a fox.

He lost a couple yesterday- and he wants me to come and shoot all foxes that I can call into his ground.

My problem is-

Where does his ethical responsibility to have a fox proof barrier end, and my responsibility to shoot them begin?

The fox didnt get into the coup- or the run- the chickens got out- as they do every day with ease and the fox is likely feeding young at the moment- and cant resist KFC easy pickings.

I dont particularly like fox shooting- they are just as sentient as deer and our lovely pet dogs- and they dont do anything more cruel than a terrier would in the same situation. But I understand needs must at times.

However- the thought of orphaning the cubs at this age really doesnt appeal. I dont think they will be able to survive alone at the moment- and shooting one parent will likely place pressure on the other to come to KFC even more frequently.

Their earth isnt on this chaps land. I dont know where it is in truth- but finding it wouldnt be easy. So dealing with the cubs having shot the parents would be difficult. I would also find it distasteful- theres not much difference between them and my puppy.

Ultimately - do i shoot 2 adult foxes, allow a number of cubs to gradually starve to death, for the sake of a few chickens - so the farmer doesnt have to build a proper fence.

Who else wrestles with this ? Is there an answer i havent considered ?

One option is i suppose is to shoot the foxes before they breed. Or give the permission up to someone who doesnt care what they orphan.

It doesn't help that every time I visit at least half my time is spent being talked at by the farmer who's so narcissistic and self absorbed I dont think he knows anything about me. I doubt he knows where I live or my surname.

The more I write this- the more I think im too soft for fox shooting 😞 it just seems a waste of life.
Click to expand...
‘Just as sentient as deer’ do you have an issue shooting deer?

Cubs are above ground and foraging for themselves now.
 
25 Sharps said:
‘Just as sentient as deer’ do you have an issue shooting deer?
Click to expand...

No I dont. I would be on the wrong forum if I did 😆

But I think foxes deserve as much respect as deer. We make real efforts to avoid orphaning young deer and im trying to do the same for foxes.

Anyway- I went and didnt see anything after calling for an hour. But the farmer has seen two late at night so I will go back.
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
No I dont. I would be on the wrong forum if I did 😆

But I think foxes deserve as much respect as deer. We make real efforts to avoid orphaning young deer and im trying to do the same for foxes.

Anyway- I went and didnt see anything after calling for an hour. But the farmer has seen two late at night so I will go back.
Click to expand...
I’m not so sure, plenty on here pushing for shorter deer seasons and plenty of people posting photos of a munty doe and buck shot together.
 
II
billy_boyle_2010 said:
I do a bit of pest control for a few farmers when required.

One farmer has a small chicken farm. They are semi free range- having the run of 50m x 30m or so. There is some vague sort of fence- not a proper one- and a decent number of the chickens wander around the farm outside of the fence.

From time to time- he looses a few to a fox.

He lost a couple yesterday- and he wants me to come and shoot all foxes that I can call into his ground.

My problem is-

Where does his ethical responsibility to have a fox proof barrier end, and my responsibility to shoot them begin?

The fox didnt get into the coup- or the run- the chickens got out- as they do every day with ease and the fox is likely feeding young at the moment- and cant resist KFC easy pickings.

I dont particularly like fox shooting- they are just as sentient as deer and our lovely pet dogs- and they dont do anything more cruel than a terrier would in the same situation. But I understand needs must at times.

However- the thought of orphaning the cubs at this age really doesnt appeal. I dont think they will be able to survive alone at the moment- and shooting one parent will likely place pressure on the other to come to KFC even more frequently.

Their earth isnt on this chaps land. I dont know where it is in truth- but finding it wouldnt be easy. So dealing with the cubs having shot the parents would be difficult. I would also find it distasteful- theres not much difference between them and my puppy.

Ultimately - do i shoot 2 adult foxes, allow a number of cubs to gradually starve to death, for the sake of a few chickens - so the farmer doesnt have to build a proper fence.

Who else wrestles with this ? Is there an answer i havent considered ?

One option is i suppose is to shoot the foxes before they breed. Or give the permission up to someone who doesnt care what they orphan.

It doesn't help that every time I visit at least half my time is spent being talked at by the farmer who's so narcissistic and self absorbed I dont think he knows anything about me. I doubt he knows where I live or my surname.

The more I write this- the more I think im too soft for fox shooting 😞 it just seems a waste of life.
Click to expand...
I think your qualms do you credit. Beyond the immediate and practical pest control considerations, one of the main things people outside fieldsports dislike instinctively about us is that they suspect us of enjoying killing things for its own sake. Well here's an example of that not being the case.

We are in the unique position of being an empathetic predator. Let's live up to that too.

(I was kicked out of a WhatsApp group once for deciding not to shoot a very small squirrel. I don't have to justify why I decide not to kill something. It's the other way around)
 
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