‘Wild sheep’ numbers St Kilda

Mungo I take it this is just a non story then and just wot has happened naturally for years?

Has anything else changed recently to effect populations/grazing?
Ie more deer, less grass for some reason? Bracken for example?
Complete non story.

Nothing has changed at all. The population cycles naturally, and has a big crash roughly every 8 years or so. The current situation is entirely within the known variation.

The only thing that’s changed is these two vets deciding to make a fuss. As I said - they have form. They’re the ones that tried to get the deer eradicated on Uist as well.
 
Lovely place the St Kilda archipelago dived around there in 1995. Had a few drinks in the NAAFI (The Puff Inn) and wondered how the flip those sheep on Soay survived. The do gooders will know what's best.
Sadly the Puff Inn was shut down. No alcohol allowed on the island now.
 
Sadly the Puff Inn was shut down. No alcohol allowed on the island now.

What's shame, grown ups will be banned soon and we'll all be doing what nanny says. The army lads came out diving with us because they only had one working boat and their rules dictated there must be two boats out, great bunch.

Is there a difference between the way the Soay and the Hirta populations get on, or do they crash in similar cycles?
 
Complete non story.

Nothing has changed at all. The population cycles naturally, and has a big crash roughly every 8 years or so. The current situation is entirely within the known variation.

The only thing that’s changed is these two vets deciding to make a fuss. As I said - they have form. They’re the ones that tried to get the deer eradicated on Uist as well.
Interesting. You do have to wonder why the BBC haven’t researched this correctly and printed same.

Quick question for my own interest, if this experiment has been going on since the 1930’s and they know the variations then surely there is little more to be learned from continuing it in the current form, or is there?

It sounds like this is the angle the two vets you allude to could be going for, as that’s how the article reads, as it could be reasonably argued on animal welfare grounds a reduction is necessary.
 
What's shame, grown ups will be banned soon and we'll all be doing what nanny says. The army lads came out diving with us because they only had one working boat and their rules dictated there must be two boats out, great bunch.

Is there a difference between the way the Soay and the Hirta populations get on, or do they crash in similar cycles?
They both cycle, but I think out of sync.
 
There was 2 distinct heards of reindeer on South Georgia, I believe they were introduced by the Danes in the days of whaleing they were all culled the last one shot in 2016 by a team of Norweigan contractors. Also there was a very expensive program to eradicate rats that were predating on the indiginous sea bird population.
 
Interesting. You do have to wonder why the BBC haven’t researched this correctly and printed same.

Quick question for my own interest, if this experiment has been going on since the 1930’s and they know the variations then surely there is little more to be learned from continuing it in the current form, or is there?

It sounds like this is the angle the two vets you allude to could be going for, as that’s how the article reads, as it could be reasonably argued on animal welfare grounds a reduction is necessary.
There are two answers here.

1. Welfare. This is the crux of the matter, and it comes down to (i) whether these particular sheep are classified as wild animals or not; and (ii) if they are wild, then do we have a duty of care to wild animals?

They are currently officially classified as wild, which means that, at the moment, there is no legal duty of care. If we decide that, in this case, there is a duty of care, that potentially sets a precedent that has broad implications. Essentially, it raises the question of where you draw the line. Nature Scot, and every other landowner, has absolutely no desire for a situation to arise where they could be held liable for the welfare of all the wild vertebrates on their land, for obvious and sensible reasons.

2. Scientific value. Yes, we know the broad demographic patterns. However, the value now is in following evolutionary change as it happens. The population is evolving, in response to a number of ecological drivers.

First, you can track the way different genes affect survival and fitness under different demographic conditions - so you can see how some genes do well when the population is dense, and how some do well when it is sparse.

Second, you can track how the population evolves in response to the changing climate. This latter is very useful indeed, because it allows us to understand how other large mammals may evolve (or not) in response to climate change. There is direct conservation relevance here, because so many of the the largest mammals around the world exist in similar conditions: small populations confined in island-like nature reserves with few or no predators. Evolution is slow, and requires many generations to follow.

Third, the whole ecosystem on the island is still changing in response to abandonment by people. The vegetation is changing (and this is monitored in detail). This change is slow - it will unfold over hundreds of years. So the whole system allows us to understand how natural systems change after humans stop actively managing them. Again, this is directly relevant elsewhere, give the explosion of rewilding programmes, many of which are going to be doing more or less the same thing: put up a fence, and let nature take its course. So the longer we leave it running, the more we understand.

This is one of a tiny handful of studies across the world on a wild, fully unmanaged population of large mammals where individuals can be tracked throughout their lives. There are probably fewer than 10 equivalent studies, and it is widely regarded as a global bench mark.
 
There are two answers here.

1. Welfare. This is the crux of the matter, and it comes down to (i) whether these particular sheep are classified as wild animals or not; and (ii) if they are wild, then do we have a duty of care to wild animals?

They are currently officially classified as wild, which means that, at the moment, there is no legal duty of care. If we decide that, in this case, there is a duty of care, that potentially sets a precedent that has broad implications. Essentially, it raises the question of where you draw the line. Nature Scot, and every other landowner, has absolutely no desire for a situation to arise where they could be held liable for the welfare of all the wild vertebrates on their land, for obvious and sensible reasons.

2. Scientific value. Yes, we know the broad demographic patterns. However, the value now is in following evolutionary change as it happens. The population is evolving, in response to a number of ecological drivers.

First, you can track the way different genes affect survival and fitness under different demographic conditions - so you can see how some genes do well when the population is dense, and how some do well when it is sparse.

Second, you can track how the population evolves in response to the changing climate. This latter is very useful indeed, because it allows us to understand how other large mammals may evolve (or not) in response to climate change. There is direct conservation relevance here, because so many of the the largest mammals around the world exist in similar conditions: small populations confined in island-like nature reserves with few or no predators. Evolution is slow, and requires many generations to follow.

Third, the whole ecosystem on the island is still changing in response to abandonment by people. The vegetation is changing (and this is monitored in detail). This change is slow - it will unfold over hundreds of years. So the whole system allows us to understand how natural systems change after humans stop actively managing them. Again, this is directly relevant elsewhere, give the explosion of rewilding programmes, many of which are going to be doing more or less the same thing: put up a fence, and let nature take its course. So the longer we leave it running, the more we understand.

This is one of a tiny handful of studies across the world on a wild, fully unmanaged population of large mammals where individuals can be tracked throughout their lives. There are probably fewer than 10 equivalent studies, and it is widely regarded as a global bench mark.
Thanks that clears quite a lot up that isn’t in the article. I don’t know if you can comment on the article but it may be worth putting something up as it seems very one sided, or indeed email the BBC ‘journalist’ who submitted it.

I was surprised by the non committal comment from the Scottish Government but with the above it now makes sense.

The only spanner in the works is the fringe nutters, also known as the Scottish Greens, who keep the SNP in power making a play on it.
 
The sheep are wild stock, in that they've been breeding and surviving by themselves since the Island was abandoned in 1930. Today St. Kilda is owned by the National Trust for Scotland so the sheep will be managed. Unfortunately, if the Scottish National Trust is anything like its English counterpart that will include an ideological resistance to any sort of culling.

Quite the opposite if what is to be read is believed. Check out the NTS Glen Coe deer cull.
 
Quite the opposite if what is to be read is believed. Check out the NTS Glen Coe deer cull.
Deer are a special case in Scotland because they are associated in the "minds" of lefty activists with English, toffs and private landowners, and are seen as the main income-generating asset (now that they have successfully trashed the salmon rivers) for a system of land ownership they want to destroy. They are therefore candidates for destruction, and probably extinction wouldn't be going too far for many of these people.
 
Complete non story.

Nothing has changed at all. The population cycles naturally, and has a big crash roughly every 8 years or so. The current situation is entirely within the known variation.

The only thing that’s changed is these two vets deciding to make a fuss. As I said - they have form. They’re the ones that tried to get the deer eradicated on Uist as well.

I believe it may have been Clutton-Brock who started the research into the soay sheep on St. Kilda? He wrote the book, pretty much, on red deer through a study on Rum, I'd guess most on this forum have a copy.

Just did a search on Amazon and got my answer: Amazon product ASIN 0521529905
Anyhow, this population are part of an important bit of research work and I guess with the sheep, as with the deer, it is handy to have the animals contained on a relatively small island as it makes the study much easier with a relatively closed system. Interfering with this population would destroy years of scientific research and would stop the collecting of further data. Leaving them alone and minding your own business would allow long term scientific research and data collection to continue.
 
I believe it may have been Clutton-Brock who started the research into the soay sheep on St. Kilda? He wrote the book, pretty much, on red deer through a study on Rum, I'd guess most on this forum have a copy.

Just did a search on Amazon and got my answer: Amazon product ASIN 0521529905
Anyhow, this population are part of an important bit of research work and I guess with the sheep, as with the deer, it is handy to have the animals contained on a relatively small island as it makes the study much easier with a relatively closed system. Interfering with this population would destroy years of scientific research and would stop the collecting of further data. Leaving them alone and minding your own business would allow long term scientific research and data collection to continue.
Yes - Tim Clutton-Brock recognised the value of the population as a study system, and set up the project that's been running ever since.

I was his PhD student in Cambridge. Although I worked on other systems (my PhD was on banded mongooses in Uganda), I was surrounded by people who worked on the Soays on St Kilda (and obviously interacted with Tim). I then moved to Edinburgh, where the project is now based, run by Josephine Pemberton (who knows a thing or two about deer as well), and again, am surrounded by 'sheepies' as they're called.

I've just come from having lunch with Josephine, who has been battling the fallout from this, and has been interviewed by various news outlets over the last few days.

In the background to all this, Nature Scot is also trying to push forward plans to shoot the long term study population of Red deer on Rum. So simultaneously, the two globally recognised study populations in Scotland are under threat. The level of willful scientific sabotage is staggering.
 
In the background to all this, Nature Scot is also trying to push forward plans to shoot the long term study population of Red deer on Rum. So simultaneously, the two globally recognised study populations in Scotland are under threat. The level of willful scientific sabotage is staggering.
Effin hell !!! 😲
 
Yes - Tim Clutton-Brock recognised the value of the population as a study system, and set up the project that's been running ever since.

I was his PhD student in Cambridge. Although I worked on other systems (my PhD was on banded mongooses in Uganda), I was surrounded by people who worked on the Soays on St Kilda (and obviously interacted with Tim). I then moved to Edinburgh, where the project is now based, run by Josephine Pemberton (who knows a thing or two about deer as well), and again, am surrounded by 'sheepies' as they're called.

I've just come from having lunch with Josephine, who has been battling the fallout from this, and has been interviewed by various news outlets over the last few days.

In the background to all this, Nature Scot is also trying to push forward plans to shoot the long term study population of Red deer on Rum. So simultaneously, the two globally recognised study populations in Scotland are under threat. The level of willful scientific sabotage is staggering.

It is completely shocking, regardless of what is driving this, that some halfwit wants to destroy two extremely important bits of science. I can only assume that the physical reality no longer matches with some doctrine or another.

The even bigger issue is that I've no idea how you protect the world from this sort of "trial by media sound bite" management especially when it is driven by emotion, as is almost always the case, rather than physical facts.

I do recall that Clutton-Brock in his little book on the natural history of Rum documented that when the Nature Conservancy took over the island (maybe 1974 or so??) they acted against the advice of the locals and removed the cattle as they weren't native wildlife etc. I can't remember the exact timescale but the book documents that the number of species present halved in a few years. I believe the cattle were returned, after a very many years. Allan Gordon Cameron in his book "The Wild Red Deer of Scotland" had already documented the advantages of having both deer and cattle on the moor. It seems all you need is a small brain and a big mouth to become a media expert these days.
 
Yes - Tim Clutton-Brock recognised the value of the population as a study system, and set up the project that's been running ever since.

I was his PhD student in Cambridge. Although I worked on other systems (my PhD was on banded mongooses in Uganda), I was surrounded by people who worked on the Soays on St Kilda (and obviously interacted with Tim). I then moved to Edinburgh, where the project is now based, run by Josephine Pemberton (who knows a thing or two about deer as well), and again, am surrounded by 'sheepies' as they're called.

I've just come from having lunch with Josephine, who has been battling the fallout from this, and has been interviewed by various news outlets over the last few days.

In the background to all this, Nature Scot is also trying to push forward plans to shoot the long term study population of Red deer on Rum. So simultaneously, the two globally recognised study populations in Scotland are under threat. The level of willful scientific sabotage is staggering.
That’s very interesting particularly since NatureScot is nothing more than a quango which is used and abused by the incumbent Scottish Government on all fronts to pursue their land reform policy and will easily bend as said ‘Government’ opens and closes the funding tap to get their will.

I hope the scientific world can get a grown ups ear on this or I fear it won’t end well at all, the current FM and his predecessor love a ‘listen to the science’ soundbite - now they can put their money where their mouth is.
 
That’s very interesting particularly since NatureScot is nothing more than a quango which is used and abused by the incumbent Scottish Government on all fronts to pursue their land reform policy and will easily bend as said ‘Government’ opens and closes the funding tap to get their will.

I hope the scientific world can get a grown ups ear on this or I fear it won’t end well at all, the current FM and his predecessor love a ‘listen to the science’ soundbite - now they can put their money where their mouth is.
Ah. A grown up. Something of a shortage of them in positions of power at the moment…
 
The first study on Soay sheep was by Peter Jewell, from 1959 to 1967 not 1930s and there have been many more since run by various groups.
I also know 100% that Soay sheep were shot on the islands in the 1960s and 70s.
 
A bloody very interesting and informative thread, cheers to all esp mungo for his detailed knowledge

I was going to say something very similar to corach.
It is an absolute disgrace now the way some " interested parties/stakeholdès" spin some stories to suit there agenda esp to the press and they just lap it up.
Let's face it u could hardly find a story like this that would be easier to fact check

With all this information and knowledge out there with the internet it should be easy to find real facts about something.
But infact the complete oppisate is true, esp when it comes to rural matters/conservation.
Some badly worded often false click bait petion gets more air time than actual experts in the field.
Also the amount of power/influence some small opionated pressure groups/nut jobs seem to have now is just astounding, wether WJ or the 1 person who got grouse shooting on ilkley Moor banned,
Yet these mouthpieces that are not qualified then get the same airtime (or more) than actual legitimate experts

And as for holyrood/snh all throu covid it was follow the science.
Yet when it comes to conservation/rural matters the science is not just routinely ignored but often their decisions completely contradict the science.
They really should be taken to court and held accountable for some of the stuff they've done

It really would be a disgrace if pressure groups or a political agenda destroyed the 2 studies
I hope the scientists get a real say in this and it is actually listened too
 
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