17HMR Terminal Performance

[samdk]

Sound advice indeed but split cases in the box are a bit of an undeniable counter to Mr H’s broadcast that it must be your gun! That said and despite splits before or after firing the 17 gns are a very accurate round. As an aside I tried a box of 15gns lead free and found that if a mouse sneezed two fields away they went everywhere. Must be my gun, of course.........

Just to confirm, split cases after firing seem to be linked to different guns/chambers. I am yet to find any split prior to firing.

The 15.5 gr NTX is very long for the weight and can struggle with stability in a 1-9 twist. And then you have wind to contend with too!

Sam

 

[Jelen]

Just to confirm, split cases after firing seem to be linked to different guns/chambers. I am yet to find any split prior to firing.

The 15.5 gr NTX is very long for the weight and can struggle with stability in a 1-9 twist. And then you have wind to contend with too!

Sam

You should check before firing. I was amazed to find 3 or 4 in every 50, sometimes less, had split necks. Not in all batches either. I was led to believe that the reason for split necks is the primer compound is inserted during the case forming and thus the cases can not be annealed. Not sure how true that is?

 

[rms364]

I had my mates browning t bolt blow up on me whilst bout after rabbits at night. Shite myself but thankfully no injuries! It happened all before I’ve read about the problems of vmax. Thinking back over the incident I pulled the trigger and nowt happened so I thought the round hadn’t chambered so reloaded and you guess, there was already one up the spout. Anyway long story short(ish) took it back to shop and had it repaired foc which in my opinion was more like admitting fault as good service. Didn’t stop me buying a tikka 17 hmr just on guard for a repeat performance..... also yes they do have their limitations but for what I use it for its great

 

[samdk]

You should check before firing. I was amazed to find 3 or 4 in every 50, sometimes less, had split necks. Not in all batches either. I was led to believe that the reason for split necks is the primer compound is inserted during the case forming and thus the cases can not be annealed. Not sure how true that is?

I do check them all to be safe but I am yet to find any. I had also heard a the same thing regarding the annealing, it does make sense.

Sam

 

[Foxyboy43]

Eh? Who is Mr H? Sorry if I missed something. I am still excited having been allowed to play golf today for the first time in yonks.

Never tried 15grainers before. The 20grainers were always terrible in my rifle, as were 17grain FMJ's that I once tried for a laugh. CCI Tnt with the little hollow point speer bullets are good and all the variants of 17g Vmax that CCI make for all the brands, so Hornady, CCI, Remington, Federal, Norma etc are all fine if the batch is good enough.

Mr H is Steve Hornady who did a broadcast last(?) year saying that there was nothing wrong with his 17 ammo and any problems encountered were down to the gun. The unfired split cases I regularly come across would seem to disprove this line somewhat.
- attached extract summarises his line and frankly I found his last bit a very strange form of words. See what you think:-
“We believe 17HMR ammunition is manufactured to the highest standard of care and quality and performs within the specifications established for 17HMR ammunition and is consistent with SAAMI standards for ALL ammunition.
We are not firearms manufacturers and we believe the firearms manufacturers are solely the ones responsible for determining if and how they should market and sell a model or type of firearm. WE STRONGLY URGE YOU TO CONTACT THE MANUFACTURER OF YOUR FIREARM TO DETERMINE IF IT IS SAFE TO USE 17HMR AMMUNITION IN YOUR SPECIFIC TYPE AND MODEL OF FIREARM.”
Does that suggest that there are some 17s not safe to shoot Hornady ammo?? Sooo you phone CZ/Remington/Anshutz et al and ask ”scuse me but is it, ahem, ok to shoot Hornady 17 hmr ammo in your 17 hmr rifle? Guessed answers on a postcard please!

 

[Cottis]

Mr H is Steve Hornady who did a broadcast last(?) year saying that there was nothing wrong with his 17 ammo and any problems encountered were down to the gun. The unfired split cases I regularly come across would seem to disprove this line somewhat.
- attached extract summarises his line and frankly I found his last bit a very strange form of words. See what you think:-
“We believe 17HMR ammunition is manufactured to the highest standard of care and quality and performs within the specifications established for 17HMR ammunition and is consistent with SAAMI standards for ALL ammunition.
We are not firearms manufacturers and we believe the firearms manufacturers are solely the ones responsible for determining if and how they should market and sell a model or type of firearm. WE STRONGLY URGE YOU TO CONTACT THE MANUFACTURER OF YOUR FIREARM TO DETERMINE IF IT IS SAFE TO USE 17HMR AMMUNITION IN YOUR SPECIFIC TYPE AND MODEL OF FIREARM.”
Does that suggest that there are some 17s not safe to shoot Hornady ammo?? Sooo you phone CZ/Remington/Anshutz et al and ask ”scuse me but is it, ahem, ok to shoot Hornady 17 hmr ammo in your 17 hmr rifle? Guessed answers on a postcard please!

Ha ha, that is certainly a bit rich from the company. Interestingly, Hornady don't make the ammunition. I think they developed it. CCI make most of it for the various brands. It is all the same ammunition apart from different coloured tips.

Clearly the ammunition is not perfect and he is a nob for claiming it is manufactured to the higest standards. I have no issue with the HMR. I think the ammunition needs treating like any mass produced rimfire hunting ammo. That is with care and to expect the odd oddity shall we say.

My HMR is an Anschutz, so guessing tight tolerances might possible aid safety but who knows. I mean if the ammo is poorly made, it is poorly made. A gun cannot change that.

Maybe I should send him this picture of some ammo I had a long time ago and ask why he thinks the obvious round would not chamber in my rifle. Maybe he is suggesting it is my German made rifle rather than his ammo made to exaxcting standards that meets SAAMI spec ha ha

 

[Foxyboy43]

Soooo latest in the 17 Hornady HMR splitting cases saga. Today I re-zeroed my 17 as I had switched scopes to accommodate my Pard (other NVs are available) and 3 out of 10 cases split on firing. I had checked them before firing and all were intact so this time the cause was detonation rather than pre-detonation. What I do not get is if as Mr H has gone on record to say that splitting cases are a problem with the gun rather than his brass, why is it that the other 7 fired today also did not split? Suggestions welcome but I still smell a furry, scaly tailed mammal.

 

[Limpet]

There is a difference between Rhidorroch and East Rhidorroch. The couple live on the latter, which doesn't have 4 holiday lets, so your web link is not the right one.

Soooo latest in the 17 Hornady HMR splitting cases saga. Today I re-zeroed my 17 as I had switched scopes to accommodate my Pard (other NVs are available) and 3 out of 10 cases split on firing. I had checked them before firing and all were intact so this time the cause was detonation rather than pre-detonation. What I do not get is if as Mr H has gone on record to say that splitting cases are a problem with the gun rather than his brass, why is it that the other 7 fired today also did not split? Suggestions welcome but I still smell a furry, scaly tailed mammal.
View attachment 200247

The question is - how did the perform accuracy wise? I guess - just fine

 

[Foxyboy43]

The question is - how did the perform accuracy wise? I guess - just fine

Yep - as per previous posts they are super accurate but the split cases issue is not going away anytime soon.

 

[samdk]

Soooo latest in the 17 Hornady HMR splitting cases saga. Today I re-zeroed my 17 as I had switched scopes to accommodate my Pard (other NVs are available) and 3 out of 10 cases split on firing. I had checked them before firing and all were intact so this time the cause was detonation rather than pre-detonation. What I do not get is if as Mr H has gone on record to say that splitting cases are a problem with the gun rather than his brass, why is it that the other 7 fired today also did not split? Suggestions welcome but I still smell a furry, scaly tailed mammal.
View attachment 200247

I would say it’s down to very thin and work hardened brass due to the lack of annealing after the neck is formed.

Sam

 

[TomDeer]

I would say it’s down to very thin and work hardened brass due to the lack of annealing after the neck is formed.

Sam

Judging by the number of split cases I have found in unshot ammunition and the position of the splits along the side of the case, it appears the fault is there before they get to neck sizing. Possibly the next sizing stage just exacerbates an existing fault, rather than creates one?

I really like the 17HMR. My CZ is amazingly accurate but I have lost confidence in the ammunition.

 

[samdk]

Judging by the number of split cases I have found in unshot ammunition and the position of the splits along the side of the case, it appears the fault is there before they get to neck sizing. Possibly the next sizing stage just exacerbates an existing fault, rather than creates one?

I really like the 17HMR. My CZ is amazingly accurate but I have lost confidence in the ammunition.

I have shot over 2500 17hmr rounds in the past 12 months and still am yet to find one split case prior to firing so I’m not sure on that and I do inspect thebefore I shoot them.

I have only seen the type of splits in the photo below after firing but as I have said there was no difference in accuracy or velocity in these which is positive.
Brass has its limitations as a material (especially when it’s worked a lot without annealing) and I think the 17hmr case is on the limit of what it can cope with.

Looking at my ballistic gel testing and it’s real world performance, it’s presents a great value for money cartridge and for 26p per round you can expect perfection.

Sam

 

[alberta boy]

The above observations are exactly the same as here . I was contemplating picking up a 17HMR not long after they came out , but a large percentage of people I knew had the same problems . It was exacerbated by the fact that , for a very long time , all that was available here was the Hornady ammo . Apparently , word had spread south of the border that the Hornady ammo had issues and was a hard sell . Naturally , being at the end of a long supply train , the less problematic ammo was bought up before we got any . Life in the North . It is a useful round and I'd still like one , but not until the ammo situation improves . The current ammo shortage problem has only made the problem even worse locally .

AB

 

[TomDeer]

I have shot over 2500 17hmr rounds in the past 12 months and still am yet to find one split case prior to firing so I’m not sure on that and I do inspect thebefore I shoot them.

I have only seen the type of splits in the photo below after firing but as I have said there was no difference in accuracy or velocity in these which is positive.
Brass has its limitations as a material (especially when it’s worked a lot without annealing) and I think the 17hmr case is on the limit of what it can cope with.

Looking at my ballistic gel testing and it’s real world performance, it’s presents a great value for money cartridge and for 26p per round you can expect perfection.

Sam

I may have got a duff batch. However, out of curiosity I have just opened 3 sealed boxes of Winchester vmax ammunition I haven't got round to taking back. In one box 7 had visible cracks down the neck to the shoulder. The next had 9. The last box had 30.

The split ratio on fired cases is running even higher, presumably because a significant number have splits not visible to the naked eye before firing . The splits on firing range from minor to running down and over the shoulder with some necks showing more than one fracture line.

Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like the 17HMR and find it incredibly accurate. However, quality control on the ammunition I have is quite obviously rubbish. I'm not expecting perfection but I also sure as heck am not expecting 30 cases out of 50 to show clear splits on the neck. Yep, most of it may well shoot fine but it certainly does not engender confidence.

Any recommendations for 17HMR ammo with better quality control?

 

[Foxyboy43]

I may have got a duff batch. However, out of curiosity I have just opened 3 sealed boxes of Winchester vmax ammunition I haven't got round to taking back. In one box 7 had visible cracks down the neck to the shoulder. The next had 9. The last box had 30.

The split ratio on fired cases is running even higher, presumably because a significant number have splits not visible to the naked eye before firing . The splits on firing range from minor to running down and over the shoulder with some necks showing more than one fracture line.

Don't get me wrong, I genuinely like the 17HMR and find it incredibly accurate. However, quality control on the ammunition I have is quite obviously rubbish. I'm not expecting perfection but I also sure as heck am not expecting 30 cases out of 50 to show clear splits on the neck. Yep, most of it may well shoot fine but it certainly does not engender confidence.

Any recommendations for 17HMR ammo with better quality control?

Hmmm. There does seem to be an alarming number of reports about “duff rounds”. I am afraid neck splitting on firing is common across all manufacturers as far as I can see and pretty common too in unfired ones - despite what manufacturers would have us believe. There have been a number of “incidents” which have resulted in pretty serious damage to rifles, most if not all, of which have been attributed to a bullet jammed up the barrel and a second shot fired but I really am starting to wonder... As per earlier posts if this was happening with larger calibre rounds remedial action would undoubtedly have ensued.
IMHO sooner or later someone will be injured badly and then action will be taken - probably only as a result of litigation or a “class action” in the States. Then and only then will the words of Mr H be held up for scrutiny.
Again, it really is a shame because this little round is an incredible asset to shooters in terms of accuracy and power, pity about the unreliability!

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm. I am afraid neck splitting on firing is common across all manufacturers as far as I can see and pretty common too in unfired ones - despite what manufacturers would have us believe. There have been a number of “incidents” which have resulted in pretty serious damage to rifles, most if not all, of which have been attributed to a bullet jammed up the barrel and a second shot fired but I really am starting to wonder... As per earlier posts if this was happening with larger calibre rounds remedial action would undoubtedly have ensued.
IMHO sooner or later someone will be injured badly and then action will be taken - probably only as a result of litigation or a “class action” in the States. Then and only then will the words of Mr H be held up for scrutiny.
Again, it really is a shame because this little round is an incredible asset to shooters in terms of accuracy and power, pity about the unreliability!

 

[samdk]

Hmmm. There does seem to be an alarming number of reports about “duff rounds”. I am afraid neck splitting on firing is common across all manufacturers as far as I can see and pretty common too in unfired ones - despite what manufacturers would have us believe. There have been a number of “incidents” which have resulted in pretty serious damage to rifles, most if not all, of which have been attributed to a bullet jammed up the barrel and a second shot fired but I really am starting to wonder... As per earlier posts if this was happening with larger calibre rounds remedial action would undoubtedly have ensued.
IMHO sooner or later someone will be injured badly and then action will be taken - probably only as a result of litigation or a “class action” in the States. Then and only then will the words of Mr H be held up for scrutiny.
Again, it really is a shame because this little round is an incredible asset to shooters in terms of accuracy and power, pity about the unreliability!

All of the splitting is down to the necking down process, we only ever see splits by the neck/shoulder and no loss of pressure around the rest of the case as that will be sealed by the pressure and pose no risk to the shooter.
All the accidents are from firing another round on top of a “squib” round that hasn't exited the barrel. If you chamber another round and fire it after the lack of noise and sonic crack after firing the first, in my opinion you shouldn’t own a fire in the first place.

The properties of brass aren’t going to change so unless they find a way to anneal the case after necking it will continue.
But I agree that the quality control should be increased to prevent split cases making it to the end user however this will probably double the cost of the ammo.

Sam

 

[TomDeer]

But I agree that the quality control should be increased to prevent split cases making it to the end user however this will probably double the cost of the ammo.

On the basis of 30 out 50 rounds having split necks in one box, the cost per round has already dramatically increased. That is before one factors in examining every unfired round individually for splits in the case neck to determine whether one is feeling lucky.

I haven't had a round blow up but that splitting past the shoulder would seem to leave potential for significant pressure to be diverted in directions it is not intended to go, with or without the previous bullet lodged in the barrel.

I really do like the calibre and it's incredibly accurate but once confidence in the ammo is gone, it's game over.

 

[samdk]

On the basis of 30 out 50 rounds having split necks in one box, the cost per round has already dramatically increased. That is before one factors in examining every unfired round individually for splits in the case neck to determine whether one is feeling lucky.

I haven't had a round blow up but that splitting past the shoulder would seem to leave potential for significant pressure to be diverted in directions it is not intended to go, with or without the previous bullet lodged in the barrel.

I really do like the calibre and it's incredibly accurate but once confidence in the ammo is gone, it's game over.

It sounds like you have a really bad batch, I get through a lot 17 ammo and never find any! My advise would be to take them back for a refund.

My local range will not allow the use of Winchester 17hrm ammo due to two accidents caused by it, one was delayed detonation after the bolt was opened causing it to set of another round in the magazine! Not sure what the other was, I would go Hornady or CCI.

Sam

 

[TomDeer]

I would go Hornady or CCI.

I'll give those a try but the ammo won't even won't leave the shop until I have checked all the rounds. They're going to love me in that shop