.22 hornet

[25 Sharps]

Thanks guys you have confirmed what I had thought, I have a good number of rabbits but only harvest 10 - 12 at a time so won’t cost a fortune, I’m also considering going the FAC air rifle route for the rabbits. I do a lot of foxes near to small holdings with horses about and the .22-250 makes a bit of a boom even moderated. I did share a bit of ground with another shooter until he shot a Fox next to the horse paddock with an unmoderated .270, needless to say I have the ground to myself now. The .17 HMR is ok on fox at short range on a calm night but need something in between and the hornet fits the bill.

Hornet sounds perfect for you.

 

[Smellydog]

But you told me the dog couldn't catch a wabbit let alone a fox . Tess or Jess I can't remember

Jess does follow a fresh blood line and with fox get stuck in. She has alway had a thing for foxes. She doesn't catch much because she is for some reason very soft mouthed and she has good teeth. The only time she does get mean is when she gets hold of a fox.
She gives voice also when she finds one, dead or alive. A completely different call to when she finds say a squirrel.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Jess does follow a fresh blood line and with fox get stuck in. She has alway had a thing for foxes. She doesn't catch much because she is for some reason very soft mouthed and she has good teeth. The only time she does get mean is when she gets hold of a fox.
She gives voice also when she finds one, dead or alive. A completely different call to when she finds say a squirrel.

Brilliant, she's always in the photos, she is a handy hound to have, pretty as well

 

[Smellydog]

Brilliant, she's always in the photos, she is a handy hound to have, pretty as well

She says thanks

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

That's why I have a dog.
Personally I've found no difference. Just less mess. About 130 or under is ideal I must agree.

Fair enough- for the longer hmr fox shots how often is the dog useful ?

How far do they run ? How frequent is a follow up shot necessary?

 

[Bowland blades]

HI BB
Apologies should have said 17 hornet not HMR I give up on HMR many years ago

so your saying the 17 hornet failed to expand ? There is a big slip up with that bullet or the load was way too light on powder ? factory or homeload ?

 

[Bowland blades]

That's why I have a dog.
Personally I've found no difference. Just less mess. About 130 or under is ideal I must agree.

160 is actually where the HMR struggles on the terminals getting unreliable and at very short range ie 20-30 yards . I was culling a hare population to protect new plant hedges and got a couple of splatter wounds on head shots ( two was enough and it went up for sale ) that was pre ammo problems over 12 years ago , never fancied another

 

[Smellydog]

Fair enough- for the longer hmr fox shots how often is the dog useful ?

How far do they run ? How frequent is a follow up shot necessary?

Good questions.
Only once have I needed Jess to find a fox that I lost and that was lost due to a damp charge in a muzzleloader.
A second time she pursued a shot fox, again from a muzzleloader that was all but dead when I caught up with them .


With the HMR I usually don't have Jess with me such is my confidence.
However, when she is with me at night I tend to slip her if it was a longish shot and the fox has gone a death run. More for her to find it and have some fun.
I will say that I do expect some foxes to run a short distance. I think the longest was around 60yards or so but usually if they run it is under 30yards. Most shot under 100yards go straight down. If they do go straight down I immediately shoot it again free of charge out of respect for the wee cartridge and the fox!

Sometimes with the large fox's, those approaching 20lb they need more than two shots. I'm being honest here and not fudging anything but as long as I definitely know that the first shot is in the vitals I know it is only seconds away from death irrespective of following shots, and that is the beauty of HMR or for that matter, any other 17 with low recoil, one knows if the first shot was good!

Why am I fan of HMR?
Because I can harvest rabbit, shoot rats, shoot squirrels, tackle a longish crow and humanly shoot foxes. In the UK it is very versatile.

 

[Smellydog]

160 is actually where the HMR struggles on the terminals getting unreliable and at very short range ie 20-30 yards . I was culling a hare population to protect new plant hedges and got a couple of splatter wounds on head shots ( two was enough and it went up for sale ) that was pre ammo problems over 12 years ago , never fancied another

I cannot comment on your experience. Maybe the rifling was compromising the bullet jacket, I have no idea.
I agree bullet performance is definitely different beyond 150-160 yards but I find it just zips through. If that is the lungs it is zipping through it's dead!
I personally do not recommend head shots except for table fare rabbits and hares and table fare is always shot much closer than 150yds.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Good questions.
Only once have I needed Jess to find a fox that I lost and that was lost due to a damp charge in a muzzleloader.
A second time she pursued a shot fox, again from a muzzleloader that was all but dead when I caught up with them .


With the HMR I usually don't have Jess with me such is my confidence.
However, when she is with me at night I tend to slip her if it was a longish shot and the fox has gone a death run. More for her to find it and have some fun.
I will say that I do expect some foxes to run a short distance. I think the longest was around 60yards or so but usually if they run it is under 30yards. Most shot under 100yards go straight down. If they do go straight down I immediately shoot it again free of charge out of respect for the wee cartridge and the fox!

Sometimes with the large fox's, those approaching 20lb they need more than two shots. I'm being honest here and not fudging anything but as long as I definitely know that the first shot is in the vitals I know it is only seconds away from death irrespective of following shots, and that is the beauty of HMR or for that matter, any other 17 with low recoil, one knows if the first shot was good!

Why am I fan of HMR?
Because I can harvest rabbit, shoot rats, shoot squirrels, tackle a longish crow and humanly shoot foxes. In the UK it is very versatile.

An interesting real world post.

I have never shot a fox with a HMR beyond 100 yards myself.

The lack of respect and humanity people show foxes really upsets me (I'm not accusing you of anything). Heck- I wont shoot a rat unless I'm 99% it will die on the spot.

Personally- I'm uncomfortable with shooting a fox and having it run 30 yards before collapsing and dying- hence I don't use a HMR beyond 100 yards.

But you do raise a point about foxes and whether a death run is acceptable..

Whilst some people will happily shoot and wound foxes and lose v little sleep if they run and die slowly- some of us are dissatisfied with a fox doing anything other than dropping on the spot from a shot (as normally happens with well placed 22 CF rounds).

And yet- we consider a deer that's chest shot and runs 30-60 yards to be a text book humane shot.

So perhaps your HMR inside 170 yards- with runs of 10-60 yards- is just as humane as deer shot who respond in the same way from deer calibres?

 

[Smellydog]

An interesting real world post.

I have never shot a fox with a HMR beyond 100 yards myself.

The lack of respect and humanity people show foxes really upsets me (I'm not accusing you of anything). Heck- I wont shoot a rat unless I'm 99% it will die on the spot.

Personally- I'm uncomfortable with shooting a fox and having it run 30 yards before collapsing and dying- hence I don't use a HMR beyond 100 yards.

But you do raise a point about foxes and whether a death run is acceptable..

Whilst some people will happily shoot and wound foxes and lose v little sleep if they run and die slowly- some of us are dissatisfied with a fox doing anything other than dropping on the spot from a shot (as normally happens with well placed 22 CF rounds).

And yet- we consider a deer that's chest shot and runs 30-60 yards to be a text book humane shot.

So perhaps your HMR inside 170 yards- with runs of 10-60 yards- is just as humane as deer shot who respond in the same way from deer calibres?

You are spot on and it's exactly my take on it all too.
Please may I add that I have hunted fox's for 4 decades with several centerfires from .224" through to .357" and believe me, even with them you will get a cock up of a shot and a fox that does not drop to the shot, I promise.
Personally when it has happened I return asap to try and retrace the event.
As crazy as it sounds the worst time I had was with a friend 22-250!! We had several fails. It was not good. Does that mean I think 22-250 is rubbish? No, certainly not.
It was just a combination of bullet choice, powder choice and rifle choice. As soon as we changed bullets and powder success returned to normal.
I'm simply relating this to demonstrate there is always somewhere,somehow, an exception to the rule!

 

[Overlay]

so your saying the 17 hornet failed to expand ? There is a big slip up with that bullet or the load was way too light on powder ? factory or homeload ?

Only use factory ammo now, the 17 hornet bullet placement was spot on, had a couple of foxes despite me doing my bit on shot placement, first one just run and run, the valley was 180 across shot was at 90 mtrs out, it run another 100 metres out of the valley from memory one of them looked like a surface wound rather than entry and another large entry no exit and it didn’t stop after falling over-after, they were tracked by the teckles otherwise would have been lost wounded

decided to get an additional 22 hornet and a 204 to go with the deuce, 17 H is a cracking caliber for rabbits but for me knockdown on foxes is hit and miss

 

[Smellydog]

Only use factory ammo now, the 17 hornet bullet placement was spot on, had a couple of foxes despite me doing my bit on shot placement, first one just run and run, the valley was 180 across shot was at 90 mtrs out, it run another 100 metres out of the valley from memory one of them looked like a surface wound rather than entry and another large entry no exit and it didn’t stop after falling over-after, they were tracked by the teckles otherwise would have been lost wounded

decided to get an additional 22 hornet and a 204 to go with the deuce, 17 H is a cracking caliber for rabbits but for me knockdown on foxes is hit and miss

With respect it was not an issue with the calibre but an issue with the bullet. The exact same issue can be encountered with any calibre bullet except .40". Anything over .40" makes two holes plenty big enough by default.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

You are spot on and it's exactly my take on it all too.
Please may I add that I have hunted fox's for 4 decades with several centerfires from .224" through to .357" and believe me, even with them you will get a cock up of a shot and a fox that does not drop to the shot, I promise.
Personally when it has happened I return asap to try and retrace the event.
As crazy as it sounds the worst time I had was with a friend 22-250!! We had several fails. It was not good. Does that mean I think 22-250 is rubbish? No, certainly not.
It was just a combination of bullet choice, powder choice and rifle choice. As soon as we changed bullets and powder success returned to normal.
I'm simply relating this to demonstrate there is always somewhere,somehow, an exception to the rule!

Yup agreed and interesting.

But if I were a fox- and I had to be shot- and that shot had to go wrong and get cocked up- I think I would rather be shot by a 22CF than a 17 calibre- knowing the wounding would kill me quicker than a rimfire. In fact- wounding from a 22CF would mean I was less likely to be able to run away- and the shooter would be more likely to get a follow up shot on me.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

160 is actually where the HMR struggles on the terminals getting unreliable and at very short range ie 20-30 yards . I was culling a hare population to protect new plant hedges and got a couple of splatter wounds on head shots ( two was enough and it went up for sale ) that was pre ammo problems over 12 years ago , never fancied another

So at short range (high velocity, 2400fps at 25m) the bullets splash on the surface of a hares head? I doubt that. 2400fps still isn’t fast compared to a 17 hornet or 17 rem. out of the thousands of sub 30m headshots I have seen with a .17 I have never seen a surface wound on a small game headshot.

 

[Smellydog]

Yup agreed and interesting.

But if I were a fox- and I had to be shot- and that shot had to go wrong and get cocked up- I think I would rather be shot by a 22CF than a 17 calibre- knowing the wounding would kill me quicker than a rimfire. In fact- wounding from a 22CF would mean I was less likely to be able to run away- and the shooter would be more likely to get a follow up shot on me.

As a general rule yes but if I were a fox I'd opt for getting shot not, with anything!

 

[Smellydog]

So at short range (high velocity, 2400fps at 25m) the bullets splash on the surface of a hares head? I doubt that. 2400fps still isn’t fast compared to a 17 hornet or 17 rem. out of the thousands of sub 30m headshots I have seen with a .17 I have never seen a surface wound on a small game headshot.

Same here bud.
Oddly enough though I have seen a 4000fps 40gn ballistic tip not go through a 200yard crow hit side on! Not one bit of bullet exited. It all came back towards the rifle, I kid you not!

 

[Bowland blades]

So at short range (high velocity, 2400fps at 25m) the bullets splash on the surface of a hares head? I doubt that. 2400fps still isn’t fast compared to a 17 hornet or 17 rem. out of the thousands of sub 30m headshots I have seen with a .17 I have never seen a surface wound on a small game headshot.

thats just plain experiance and the simple fact of the HMR bullet having a considrably thinner jacket and bond ( because otherwise it might not expand at all once you where out past 100 yards , simple terminal effect balistics that Buddy
Frankly speaking i shot it a lot regulary at a lot of quarry , i shoot a lot of land right here at home . RF ammo will vary , some might not expand at all because the thing HMR never did was reach the over confident sales volume set to make it the king RF , 22LR still holds that to this day of course while hmr sales have dropped . I sold mine because of the above factors before the cases where splitting etc . I actually sold it back to the same dealer at a small profit and then the dodgy ammo thing hit hard as the ammo was not making sales required of it ( it still hasnt and wont)
17 rem and 17 hornet bullets are made with a thicker jacket and different lead antinomy , shoot your average hmr bullet through a 17 rem and it will very likely "dust" as the speed / twist rate breaks it up before it hits anything . Have you seen a bullet dust in flight ? Many here will have , it was fairly common with fast twist 6.5x284 run at high velocity on FTR Open class when certain " target bullets where used " target bullets that are not designed to expand that is!
2400 fps isnt fast but its fast enough with cheaply made copper jacketed bullets when you stike bone at its high end , heck fools still say the HMR breaks up and doesnt ricochet , it cerainly can ricochet but it can also bust appart on a hares head , it just depends on the bullet and what it hits and where at what angle .
What we are talking is an " unreliable " terminal lythality and marketing folks and salesmen trying to hit "fiscal targets "
Hope this helps you understand why HMR is actually a failed project , though it might be of use to some folks like those who cannot get a small cf grant yet to deal with stuff out of the HMR window

 

[User00036]

Same here bud.
Oddly enough though I have seen a 4000fps 40gn ballistic tip not go through a 200yard crow hit side on! Not one bit of bullet exited. It all came back towards the rifle, I kid you not!

I tried a certain brand of 40gr Bt bullets in my deuce, after getting 3 surface wounds & horrific injuries, I returned to 50 gr. I once used a set of cheap pine bookshelves laid on their sides for zeroing, the bullet went through the first shelf, but not the second. The only thing I saw on the second shelf was minute particles of bullet like someone used a bad spray gun. Rape stubbles are another one, when I would never use a BT Bullet.

 

[Smellydog]

I tried a certain brand of 40gr Bt bullets in my deuce, after getting 3 surface wounds & horrific injuries, I returned to 50 gr. I once used a set of cheap pine bookshelves laid on their sides for zeroing, the bullet went through the first shelf, but not the second. The only thing I saw on the second shelf was minute particles of bullet like someone used a bad spray gun. Rape stubbles are another one, when I would never use a BT Bullet.

The same bullet at hornet velocity is good though.