32-20 into .310 Cadet
- Thread starter Stalker62
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Stalker62
Well-Known Member
If you are seating the bullet past the heel, then that would be your problem. I see from your previous picture of three rounds that the middle one is seated past the grease groove. If you are assembling the ammunition like that then I am afraid that is wrong. The grease groove should be exposed, and the bullet held in the case by the heel only. The original rounds were an externally lubricated bullet, similar to a .22RF.
Kind regards M
Kind regards M
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Yes I know. It has been a journey.
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
Been there done that.
I see this as a waste of time as the .310 is no better than a .22 LR.
All my Cadets got repurposed as .222R, .223R, .22 K Hornet, 6mm/30-30 Int (6mm Phillips), 25-20 imp, 257 Mag, .357 Mag or .22 rimfire.
But anyway, each to their own.
Just make sure you use the correct projectiles, as the British .310 is a larger bore than the .32 American projectile.
The usual British understatement.
.32 bullets will rattle down the barrel and fly sideways to the butts.
One benefit of the Cadet action is that it is insanely strong and despite it's advanced age it is unlikely that you will blow it up, (unless you use a fast burning pistol powder like Bullseye).
Personally I have always been very shy of using ANY pistol powder in a rifle case.
I see this as a waste of time as the .310 is no better than a .22 LR.
All my Cadets got repurposed as .222R, .223R, .22 K Hornet, 6mm/30-30 Int (6mm Phillips), 25-20 imp, 257 Mag, .357 Mag or .22 rimfire.
But anyway, each to their own.
Just make sure you use the correct projectiles, as the British .310 is a larger bore than the .32 American projectile.
The usual British understatement.
.32 bullets will rattle down the barrel and fly sideways to the butts.
One benefit of the Cadet action is that it is insanely strong and despite it's advanced age it is unlikely that you will blow it up, (unless you use a fast burning pistol powder like Bullseye).
Personally I have always been very shy of using ANY pistol powder in a rifle case.
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
- Then I am delighted that both you and I are members of the same club.
- I am saddened that you appear not recognise that the journey was about "bringing back to life" a classic rifle - made in the UK for your Cadets (NSW), which then found its way to the USA and finally , back home to the UK. That global journey is and of itself worthy of the effort - in my view.
- There is a fine line between "repurposing" and destroying. I trust you made wise choices.
- And therein lies the beauty of humanity.
AusTony
Member
Guys, I feel your pain.
Here is a post that I started a couple of weeks ago on another site. Hope you enjoy my frustration.
At the moment I am trying to clean the lead out of a 110yo leade which has been baked on since WW1. So far I've done pretty good but I am stumbling at the last post.
Now this is pretty good considering what I started with.
I have tried all manner of brushing, soaking, scraping, everything from Ed's Red to Mercury and as any Aussie knows if there is a stubborn smear - out comes the Sweets 7.62, if that doesn't shift it then it's going to be difficult. My first question to the brains trust, has anyone tried the Acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide soak method? I know the dangers but if you could see the leade you would understand why I ask. Short bursts of soaking up to 2 mins max and plenty of scrubbing/oil after.
So that is the boring bit out of the way.
I have 3 moulds, one came with the gun, an old 125n CBE mould with a weird heel that tapers at the driving band making for a loose fit in the case. A 130 gn pointed and 120n round nose. The projectiles measure 125 -.706, 120 - .650 and the 130 - .723
as can be seen from the pic, they are of course different lengths which is what is causing concern for me, hence the conundrum.
My cases in the chamber fit up to the start of the leade so all of the projectile outside the case must fit into the leade as there is nowhere else to go.
Which under normal circumstances isn't an issue, except when you see the loaded cases.
With an overall length of 1.540, 1.480 and 1.640 respectively
both the 120 and 130 gn projectiles will not chamber fully (unless I "persuade" them) and have done with successful groups. Which is probably due to the nose diameter, the 125 has a narrower nose diam. allowing it to fit further into the leade.
but I really want a round that will drop into the chamber and allow me to close the action without having to use a mallet. I have not really tested the 125n projectiles yet as I felt that a wobbly projectile with no case tension is not going to perform that well. I have possibly overcome that issue by wrapping PTFE tape around the heel so there is now a tight fit in the case.
So here is the conundrum.
I know that the 130gn projectiles will shoot reasonable groups at present, and would probably shoot better groups if I didn't have to force them into the leade/barrel.
The 120gn projectiles are still an unknown as they are yet to be tested, but will still need forcing. As are the 125gn but without the forcing.
I haven't trimmed a case in over 40 years and don't want to start now if I can help it. I only have 100 cases but the daunting task of trimming them is making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. That and I would have to find my case trimmer, if I could find a 32 S&W trim die I could probably make it work but RCBS stopped making them some time back.
Here is a post that I started a couple of weeks ago on another site. Hope you enjoy my frustration.
At the moment I am trying to clean the lead out of a 110yo leade which has been baked on since WW1. So far I've done pretty good but I am stumbling at the last post.
Now this is pretty good considering what I started with.
I have tried all manner of brushing, soaking, scraping, everything from Ed's Red to Mercury and as any Aussie knows if there is a stubborn smear - out comes the Sweets 7.62, if that doesn't shift it then it's going to be difficult. My first question to the brains trust, has anyone tried the Acetic acid/hydrogen peroxide soak method? I know the dangers but if you could see the leade you would understand why I ask. Short bursts of soaking up to 2 mins max and plenty of scrubbing/oil after.
So that is the boring bit out of the way.
I have 3 moulds, one came with the gun, an old 125n CBE mould with a weird heel that tapers at the driving band making for a loose fit in the case. A 130 gn pointed and 120n round nose. The projectiles measure 125 -.706, 120 - .650 and the 130 - .723
as can be seen from the pic, they are of course different lengths which is what is causing concern for me, hence the conundrum.
My cases in the chamber fit up to the start of the leade so all of the projectile outside the case must fit into the leade as there is nowhere else to go.
Which under normal circumstances isn't an issue, except when you see the loaded cases.
With an overall length of 1.540, 1.480 and 1.640 respectively
both the 120 and 130 gn projectiles will not chamber fully (unless I "persuade" them) and have done with successful groups. Which is probably due to the nose diameter, the 125 has a narrower nose diam. allowing it to fit further into the leade.
but I really want a round that will drop into the chamber and allow me to close the action without having to use a mallet. I have not really tested the 125n projectiles yet as I felt that a wobbly projectile with no case tension is not going to perform that well. I have possibly overcome that issue by wrapping PTFE tape around the heel so there is now a tight fit in the case.
So here is the conundrum.
I know that the 130gn projectiles will shoot reasonable groups at present, and would probably shoot better groups if I didn't have to force them into the leade/barrel.
The 120gn projectiles are still an unknown as they are yet to be tested, but will still need forcing. As are the 125gn but without the forcing.
I haven't trimmed a case in over 40 years and don't want to start now if I can help it. I only have 100 cases but the daunting task of trimming them is making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. That and I would have to find my case trimmer, if I could find a 32 S&W trim die I could probably make it work but RCBS stopped making them some time back.
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
Yes I realise I was being ungracious. They are a sweet little rifle. Good luck to all who wish to resurrect one and shoot it.
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
You are certainly doing your part in that department old son.
Love the look of your "paper patched" .310s.
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure I have a full box of.310 rounds somewhere in storage. I wish I could post them.
AusTony
Member
Cheers for that, but waay too hard.
So whilst we are on the subject, you don't mind if I take you to task on a statement you made, because we are all friends here.
From what you have said your cadets have been repurposed into I can see a couple of cases I wouldn't bother using anything but pistol powder. Just for example your 357mag and 22 K hornet and possibly the 25-20 imp (unfamiliar to me). I would use 2400 in the Hornet or 296 in a flash, both excellent powders for that round, even AP100 at a pinch. As for the 357mag, what else would you use? anything slower than AR2205 is a waste of time. I'm only running my Cadet up to 1700fps, but that wasn't my aim. I would rather have a round that will hold an inch at 100 and is pleasant enough to shoot all day, kids and all. I'm playing with Trail Boss at the moment because I had some lying around, pleasant BP equivalent feel to it when the fire at the back starts. The Cadets were originally a BP cartridge, if you haven't yet tried, do so, a little bit of fun. 120gn proj, 10gns 3F and 2 grains of any smokeless to intensify the primer spark. The report is definitely BP, the recoil feels smokeless and they group too.
But I digress, seriously look at pistol powders. The guns were used to train cadets and military in accurate long range shooting prior to handing over a SMLE, they trained them up to 600 yds, I wouldn't stand in front of one at 300 to be honest, a little bit of a stretch for a 22rf.
I am in the middle of writing up my group testing results from the weekend, pity I forgot my chrono (old fart) otherwise I could have posted some velocities too.
If I could work out how to insert a jpeg file I would load up couple of groups to keep you interested, all at 50 yes off a sandbag.
As a word of advice, never use PTFE tape, groups went out the window, I have read this before but as I was just using it to hold the heel of the projectile thought it may be OK, I was wrong.
Tony
So whilst we are on the subject, you don't mind if I take you to task on a statement you made, because we are all friends here.
So you have never used a pistol powder in a rifle case? or, you wouldn't recommend using pistol powder in a large capacity rifle case? or, you feel that there are better rifle powders out there?
From what you have said your cadets have been repurposed into I can see a couple of cases I wouldn't bother using anything but pistol powder. Just for example your 357mag and 22 K hornet and possibly the 25-20 imp (unfamiliar to me). I would use 2400 in the Hornet or 296 in a flash, both excellent powders for that round, even AP100 at a pinch. As for the 357mag, what else would you use? anything slower than AR2205 is a waste of time. I'm only running my Cadet up to 1700fps, but that wasn't my aim. I would rather have a round that will hold an inch at 100 and is pleasant enough to shoot all day, kids and all. I'm playing with Trail Boss at the moment because I had some lying around, pleasant BP equivalent feel to it when the fire at the back starts. The Cadets were originally a BP cartridge, if you haven't yet tried, do so, a little bit of fun. 120gn proj, 10gns 3F and 2 grains of any smokeless to intensify the primer spark. The report is definitely BP, the recoil feels smokeless and they group too.
But I digress, seriously look at pistol powders. The guns were used to train cadets and military in accurate long range shooting prior to handing over a SMLE, they trained them up to 600 yds, I wouldn't stand in front of one at 300 to be honest, a little bit of a stretch for a 22rf.
I am in the middle of writing up my group testing results from the weekend, pity I forgot my chrono (old fart) otherwise I could have posted some velocities too.
If I could work out how to insert a jpeg file I would load up couple of groups to keep you interested, all at 50 yes off a sandbag.
As a word of advice, never use PTFE tape, groups went out the window, I have read this before but as I was just using it to hold the heel of the projectile thought it may be OK, I was wrong.
Tony
Given that hybridfiat's first words were "I see this as a waste of time as the .310 is no better than a .22 LR." I ignored his ignorance from then on.
A .30 calibre bullet of 120 grains or so at supersonic velocities well beyond almost any .22LR (you are at 1700 fps I think you said) is certainly not to be sneezed at. 770 foot lbs.
Re. the PTFE tape, no that never works. You need a solid unyielding durable (as in speeding down the bore all the way without failing) wrap, not soft squishy stuff that softens at very low temperatures, in no way suitable to be fired down a rifle barrel.
Meaning paper. Or the sort of polymer used to make sabots.
However if just wrapping the under sized heel, to try to make it fit into a mis-matched case neck, I doubt that will work. Either you'd have to glue it on tightly so it stayed on the heel throughout the flight, or make it loose so it falls or is stripped off as soon as the bullet is out of the muzzle.
The castboolits forum have plenty of discussion on either paper patching for black powder, or for nitro powders.
Your suggestion of a duplex load for black powder might be considered controversial. I would not suggest it.
Black powder being potentially an explosive capable of detonation, rather than just a fast burning propellant like our nitro powders.
A .30 calibre bullet of 120 grains or so at supersonic velocities well beyond almost any .22LR (you are at 1700 fps I think you said) is certainly not to be sneezed at. 770 foot lbs.
Re. the PTFE tape, no that never works. You need a solid unyielding durable (as in speeding down the bore all the way without failing) wrap, not soft squishy stuff that softens at very low temperatures, in no way suitable to be fired down a rifle barrel.
Meaning paper. Or the sort of polymer used to make sabots.
However if just wrapping the under sized heel, to try to make it fit into a mis-matched case neck, I doubt that will work. Either you'd have to glue it on tightly so it stayed on the heel throughout the flight, or make it loose so it falls or is stripped off as soon as the bullet is out of the muzzle.
The castboolits forum have plenty of discussion on either paper patching for black powder, or for nitro powders.
Your suggestion of a duplex load for black powder might be considered controversial. I would not suggest it.
Black powder being potentially an explosive capable of detonation, rather than just a fast burning propellant like our nitro powders.
AusTony
Member
Sharpie, the PTFE was only to give the heel some purchase into the case, the heel on this projectile is undersized so the projectile would fall out of the case if it wasn't kept upright. I didn't expect it to stay in place but also didn't expect it to play that much of a part in the accuracy either, or maybe there are other things at play. It was worth the effort to experiment with it, just didn't pa out like I thought.
Yes BP is an explosive, and smokeless (nitro) powders are a propellant. But I don't see how the use of BP, duplex loaded or not may be considered controversial, the smokeless starter helps keep the barrel a little cleaner and also ensures that all of the BP is burned. If you look at the right hand side of a cadet barrel just in front of the receiver you will find, if my memory serves right (because I would have to go and open the gunroom and safe) 30-12-120. Thirty calibre, 12 grains of BP and a 120 grain projectile.
Aha, I worked out a way to attach pics.
Tony
Yes BP is an explosive, and smokeless (nitro) powders are a propellant. But I don't see how the use of BP, duplex loaded or not may be considered controversial, the smokeless starter helps keep the barrel a little cleaner and also ensures that all of the BP is burned. If you look at the right hand side of a cadet barrel just in front of the receiver you will find, if my memory serves right (because I would have to go and open the gunroom and safe) 30-12-120. Thirty calibre, 12 grains of BP and a 120 grain projectile.
Aha, I worked out a way to attach pics.
Tony
Attachments
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
No I don't use the fast low dose powders in my rifle cases.
A Because of the ability to overcharge
B Because I never load down. I just select a rifle in a lower class and use that.
Personal preference.
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Just when you think you have cracked it. First trip out to Bisley today since LIII started to ease.
I took the .310 Cadet and box of 100 rounds which I had made from .32-20 brass.
Long short.
I managed to fire off six rounds before I lost the will to live. All of the rounds will chamber but I cannot close the breech on most.
This is (and we all know this) because the .32-30 brass rim is thicker than real .310 brass rims. Some will and some won't. If I had to guess I would say that they need to loose two thou. off the rims.
Now then.
Here's the question. How to do this with loaded rounds. I do not own or have access to a lathe. I know it's a wee bit tricky but would appreciate the thoughts of those more technically gifted.
I took the .310 Cadet and box of 100 rounds which I had made from .32-20 brass.
Long short.
I managed to fire off six rounds before I lost the will to live. All of the rounds will chamber but I cannot close the breech on most.
This is (and we all know this) because the .32-30 brass rim is thicker than real .310 brass rims. Some will and some won't. If I had to guess I would say that they need to loose two thou. off the rims.
Now then.
Here's the question. How to do this with loaded rounds. I do not own or have access to a lathe. I know it's a wee bit tricky but would appreciate the thoughts of those more technically gifted.
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Fosbery Holster
Well-Known Member
Your incorrigible.......even your shooting buddy sh1kar mentioned rim thickness a good while back in this thread.......my guess is it’s more like .020” needs to be removed.
l wouldn’t dare to suggest a remedy of thinning the rims on your loaded rounds.....you’d probably end up in A&E.
l wouldn’t dare to suggest a remedy of thinning the rims on your loaded rounds.....you’d probably end up in A&E.
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Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Not quite the word my wife used, but in the same ball park...
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