BMH that i have seen (only a few ) work on a line and most are never let walk free like the HPR Spaniels and labs. The owners find it near impossible to stop them hunting at heal and that has to be understood when you get one. They are not naturally clever dogs and will work more on instinct formed form generations of sent hounds. I have yet to see a BMH walking at heal drop to shot and find on a hand signal in the field while out stalking. If some one has such a dog pm me as i would love to witness this dog.
6 month old BMH chasing deer!
- Thread starter bartzkingx
- Start date
Gazza
Well-Known Member
Not the most constructive reply I have read. Your right the dog here is still very much a pup and has a lot to learn but I don't believe that her owner is "the problem" if indeed there is a problem nor do I think that without knowing the owner can you say that he has "no idea how to harness the potential". BMH a hunting machine?? Really!! My mates wee cocker is a far better hunting machine than my BMH will ever be. Nor do I believe that if you buy a BMH you get exactly what it says on the tin. Like all working breeds there are hopefully core genetics and traits bred in but each dog is different. My own BMH was out stalking with me before 6 months, succesfully completed a live situation track at just over 6 months and has probably learnt more on the job than anything I could provide in training. I try to use each stalk as a learning curve for him. eg extending the time sat below a high seat to teach patience, leaving him sitting whilst I walk on a bit, quietly sitting watching deer etc
Is there a problem - IMO I don't believe so. What this owner has is a situation that requires careful handling. A gundog that chases or runs in is easily addressed. Strict and enforced drop to flush/shot, 100% recall, heelwork and only limited retrieves. But here we have a dog displaying a desired trait that in later training we would wish to develop and encourage but at this stage is not wanted and we could loose control over. We need to be very careful that in our wish to stop him chasing at this stage we do not bring in confusion at a later stage. IMO Avoidance, distraction and control are the key. Continue with instilling good basic obedience in a place where there are no deer (although deer/other animal scent could be an advantage in providing distraction) - sit/stay, recall, heelwork along with training tracks. Never give a command that you cannot enforce. Take the dog out where he may encounter deer but on a leash. When you do come across deer make him sit with you and just watch. Go through a routine of using your binos etc as if you were stalking. Be ever watchfull of him going to move and place him back into the sit or lie position. Let the deer walk off and you walk away in the opposite direction. Depending on the dog it's a progression from there to shooting one of the deer and if necessary involving her in finding the carcass. If this dog is of the right stuff she will learn what the whole job is.
I don't know Gazza
I think kit has made some very constructive points
We are not talking about a 6 month old lab or a pointer that I would expect to walk off the lead with out giving chase at this age
We are talking about a BMH which has a totally different brain structure
But to be fair no one has even picked up on Bartzking's training method which has a proven record with other BMH owners working younger dogs
If the dog working loose on a injured beast first runs all the un-injured deer off first
Then the only deer left to find in theory is the injured one
Then with a bit more age and maturity through work the dog will or should generally knuckle down and stick to the wounded beast's trail
Some times perfection is not instance regardless of the training regime
I think kit has made some very constructive points
We are not talking about a 6 month old lab or a pointer that I would expect to walk off the lead with out giving chase at this age
We are talking about a BMH which has a totally different brain structure
But to be fair no one has even picked up on Bartzking's training method which has a proven record with other BMH owners working younger dogs
If the dog working loose on a injured beast first runs all the un-injured deer off first
Then the only deer left to find in theory is the injured one
Then with a bit more age and maturity through work the dog will or should generally knuckle down and stick to the wounded beast's trail
Some times perfection is not instance regardless of the training regime
I was trained that way. It makes far too much noise and the deer get advance warning.The dog should be soundlesly controlled.
Three scenarios:
1 Excercise walk. I use that as part of the training so she works on hand signals and has to keep an eye on me. When she was very young she occasionally chased a pheasant or a rabbit but a firm no followed by a few lessons on the long lead soon stopped that. This are not hard to control keen spaniels but very intelligently bred dogs so they grasp what is required pretty fast.
2 Training either on the tracking lead with the scenting shoe and may be a short chase at the end. She will be so fixed on the track that she will not move from it. To make life a little more difficult I pull a rabbit at 90% over the track and leave it laying upwind so from day 1 rabbit chasing is a nono.
3 A real track. the dog is tracking on a lead with at the end may be a free hetze following the hot scent of a wounded deer. Once she is of the lead the should persevere with halting that deer and not be distracted by anything. Why would you be whisling?
These dogs are not meant to follow a wounded deer immediately but are called in the next day if the, let us call it local dog, cannot find the deer. If I start whisling near where the wounded deer could be that will create problems. Better train them without a whistle right from Day 1.
bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
Thanks again for everyone commenting.
Gazza, I feel that that is the way forward with Bayer and I'll look to improve her recall and general obedience. I think that her obedience is almost there when there are no distractions so in a couple of weeks I shall begin introducing a few distractions. I have managed to teach her to not have her nose to the floor whilst at heel but I think I must ensure that it is maintained when in the sit/stay.
Stone, my apologies for not making it clear but when training her on trails she does not come of the lead at the mo, and as of yet she hasn't chased anything whilst on a trail. It is when i am walking her on her daily walks that she bolts on fresh scent and chasing.
Baron, if I used your method of the long lead along with reinforcement of obedience, do you think she will be able to differentiate between when it is okay to chase and when not to? I was intending in later months to introduce a controlled chase at the end of a trail, is this how she will learn? I guess these are things the KBGS will be able to help with in the near future.
Gazza, I feel that that is the way forward with Bayer and I'll look to improve her recall and general obedience. I think that her obedience is almost there when there are no distractions so in a couple of weeks I shall begin introducing a few distractions. I have managed to teach her to not have her nose to the floor whilst at heel but I think I must ensure that it is maintained when in the sit/stay.
Stone, my apologies for not making it clear but when training her on trails she does not come of the lead at the mo, and as of yet she hasn't chased anything whilst on a trail. It is when i am walking her on her daily walks that she bolts on fresh scent and chasing.
Baron, if I used your method of the long lead along with reinforcement of obedience, do you think she will be able to differentiate between when it is okay to chase and when not to? I was intending in later months to introduce a controlled chase at the end of a trail, is this how she will learn? I guess these are things the KBGS will be able to help with in the near future.
bartzkingx, even at 18months a dog is still young. I have used a dog as early as 6months due to circumstance forcing me to rather than by choice. I regetted it as the dog was no where ready but any dog at that time was better than no dog for me. Remember with hunting dogs you dont really need to train them to hunt. But only to hunt when commanded. Most dogs I have had are just getting introduced to easy and controlled stalks at about a year old. If something happens that I think is to much of a challenge for the dog then I'll stop. Hopefully I all ways have an older dog that can be called on. You are right to want to nip it in the bud. Again I'll say I have no experience of BMH. I have seen a friend stalk with one and it walked at heel without a lead and without any problems. It is good you are getting advise from your German colleagues as they have been using them a lot longer than us. My ideal training aid would be a pet deer in a wooded pen, this could be put to great use in your situation. If you are any where near a deer farm or you know where there are deer on a regular basis then think of using them. If you think about it all youve got to do is train it to sit when deer are present. bartzkingx just ready your bit about your daily walks above, my daily walks are training sessions. in essence if you allow this to continue(bolting on fresh scents) then you are really training her to do just that. Hope this helps
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bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
That is really helpful, thank you. She definitely has the hunting instinct and as you say it's about training that instinct. She's a great dog and because she's my first I'm trying my best to ensure she is as good as I can possibly make her.
It is my goal to eventually do as your friend does, and stalk with my Schweisshund at my side without a lead.
It is my goal to eventually do as your friend does, and stalk with my Schweisshund at my side without a lead.
Nice one.
She is off the lead when actively chasing a deer, hetze. Or when she goes for a walk. With the aid of the long line and her good brain she has quickly understood that chasing is not allowed.
That is easy. She is only allowed to chase when you take her tracking collar off and put her on the hot scent of a wounded deer that has just left its woundbed with a special command, get it or something like that.
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Experience will come in time
Obedience first and stop her chasing ASAP,everything else will come in time
Never push a young dog too soon unless you know it's ready for it,which at 6 months I doubt
Practice as has been said with her on lead,sitting watching deer run away,enforce steadiness and in time she will look for command from you instead of chasing any deer
She'll soon realise when the collar comes off what it means,a hetze
Patience is the key word just now
I wish you well with your first deer dog and i hope you can stalk with her at your side (with out restraints) and do everything that you want to do with her. Also may i say contrary to Barons opinion if your dog is chasing a live deer rabbit or any other animal you do not want it to chaise then you need a command to stop it and there is none better than the whistle. I do agree a lot of training needs to be put in first but there comes a time when EVERY dog try,s it on. If you are out stalking which is the most likely time you will just need to forgo that deer you were after ,losing a small amount in the training process is normal but you will gain later on it is worth it.
Rudy
To be fair to the Baron
his comments about not using a whistle are pretty solid and deserves the merit you don't give it credit for
It's all in the training
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