A short cartridge based on the .22 Hornet

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Bavarianbrit

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I have been trimming to design length a 500x pack of .22 Hornet once fireds that I have just acquired to do after doing the pin cleaning on them and as it take a days grafting to do spread over some days the mind tends to wander and the thought came to me that it looked like a short .38 style straight walled cartridge could be made up from it for use in a revolver or rook rifle type of action. Then looking ont net I found this article, not quite fits my idea but interesting nevertheless.
 
Yes the designers who made the original Rookandrabbit cartridges were really ahead of their time. I recall on the “cast boolits” site there was an American enthusiast who was going down a similar road he wished to design a .22 centre fire round based on a .22 rim fire cartridge.
He spent several months designing trial and error and was happy eventually with what he had accomplished.

However Flemings book on British Sporting Rifle Cartridges showed a very similar round and the British designers were some 140 years in front of him.

Regards Rookandrabbit.
 
Hi, the hornet case is notoriously thin walled compared to modern centre-fire cartridges, but that probably isn’t a problem if your wildcat is for a low pressure pistol round.
I think the thin neck wall would make it difficult to neck the round up, but a .25 hornet would otherwise be a fun project, but would be an even shorter range proposition than .22 hornet. Perhaps a shortened case, .25 calibre head and a few grains of unique would make a subsonic .25 calibre round which would be great for short range foxes (if the police licensing authority were OK with that :) ). Mind you - as mentioned by someone else above, that round is going to be pretty much a .297/250. I have a rook rifle in that calibre, but don’t have it on ticket so I haven’t tried loading it subsonic or otherwise. The bore is far from perfect so I think it is destined to stay as an obsolete firearm!
 
Blaser Ash said:
Hi, the hornet case is notoriously thin walled compared to modern centre-fire cartridges, but that probably isn’t a problem if your wildcat is for a low pressure pistol round.
I think the thin neck wall would make it difficult to neck the round up, but a .25 hornet would otherwise be a fun project, but would be an even shorter range proposition than .22 hornet. Perhaps a shortened case, .25 calibre head and a few grains of unique would make a subsonic .25 calibre round which would be great for short range foxes (if the police licensing authority were OK with that :) ). Mind you - as mentioned by someone else above, that round is going to be pretty much a .297/250. I have a rook rifle in that calibre, but don’t have it on ticket so I haven’t tried loading it subsonic or otherwise. The bore is far from perfect so I think it is destined to stay as an obsolete firearm!
Click to expand...
I measured them all the .38s are 9 thou wall .357 11 thou .22 Hornet PPUs are 14-15 thou.
 
Bavarianbrit said:
I measured them all the .38s are 9 thou wall .357 11 thou .22 Hornet PPUs are 14-15 thou.
Click to expand...
Yes PPU hornet brass is blooming thick walled compared to other makes , its also good brass regards the metallurgy of the brass . Capacity for PPU hornet is the lowest a good two grains lower and the funny thing about Hornet using lilgun in Hornet is it will produce the same max velocities with the very lowest fills as it does with a crammed full case ( however low fills vary shot to shot a lot !) I wonder if that is the same when its cut into a straight wall ? This is with LIl'Gun powder btw
 
I could see it being used as an insert stub barrel for a 12 or 16G perhaps 5 inches long for RTA or finishing off a fox close up rather than using a full on 12G or rifle cartridge in a drilling to reduce the hazard from ricochets.
 
Donkey Basher said:
.297/.250 😎

.25ACP bullet & cut down Hornet case
Click to expand...
I don't know of any other, but if you mean the "297/.250 Rook" this uses the "297/.230 Morris Long" case necked up.
H&H introduced the cartridge, I think.
Some other minor troubles; the .22 Hornet case rim is too thick so the action won't close.
Even if it did, the only .25 ACP bullets made are FMJ .251" which might blow the rifle up.
Just saying.:)
 
Bavarianbrit said:
I could see it being used as an insert stub barrel for a 12 or 16G perhaps 5 inches long for RTA or finishing off a fox close up rather than using a full on 12G or rifle cartridge in a drilling to reduce the hazard from ricochets.
Click to expand...
When we talk shotgun - just take a shotgun ! Say a 12g pump you can with the appropriate paperwork put a heavy slug right down to a light load of tiny shot or even confetti. That for me is the 12 bore shotgun it can fire so many different loads without cycling issues .
I do not do police call outs officially
410 std loads with 100% kill any fox close even with with an 11 or 14 grain load of std shot if the thing is in a cage trap etc
 
Blaser Ash said:
Hi, the hornet case is notoriously thin walled compared to modern centre-fire cartridges, but that probably isn’t a problem if your wildcat is for a low pressure pistol round.
I think the thin neck wall would make it difficult to neck the round up, but a .25 hornet would otherwise be a fun project, but would be an even shorter range proposition than .22 hornet. Perhaps a shortened case, .25 calibre head and a few grains of unique would make a subsonic .25 calibre round which would be great for short range foxes (if the police licensing authority were OK with that :) ). Mind you - as mentioned by someone else above, that round is going to be pretty much a .297/250. I have a rook rifle in that calibre, but don’t have it on ticket so I haven’t tried loading it subsonic or otherwise. The bore is far from perfect so I think it is destined to stay as an obsolete firearm!
Click to expand...
My late friend Bill Oviatt took a Hornet case and necked it up to a successful 6mm round.
Can’t remember what Bill called his creation (Perhaps 6mm Horny Toad.) and as he was very active on Saubier forum and that forum had now gone I’m not sure how you’d find details.
Ken.
 
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Bowland blades said:
Yes PPU hornet brass is blooming thick walled compared to other makes , its also good brass regards the metallurgy of the brass . Capacity for PPU hornet is the lowest a good two grains lower and the funny thing about Hornet using lilgun in Hornet is it will produce the same max velocities with the very lowest fills as it does with a crammed full case ( however low fills vary shot to shot a lot !) I wonder if that is the same when its cut into a straight wall ? This is with LIl'Gun powder btw
Click to expand...
Using Lilgun I used to load 13gr behind a 45gr Sierra sp. Now I just fill case scrape off and seat same bullet. Same group same poi.
 
Ratel said:
Using Lilgun I used to load 13gr behind a 45gr Sierra sp. Now I just fill case scrape off and seat same bullet. Same group same poi.
Click to expand...
I have a fair bit of .22 Hornet brass from a TCR 87 single shot rifle I sold on years ago. I had hoped to size it down to .17 Hornet, but I think I would need a series of reducing dies and a lot of dicking about to make it work, so decided it really wasn’t worth the effort, but cutting the cases off to make a pistol or single shot rifle round of larger calibre as suggested by the guy who started this thread, would be pretty straight forward and is a great idea. The other easy option would be necking down to .20 calibre. This would also thicken the brass in the neck area, which would probably work ok without the need for subsequent neck turning. I assume the .20 hornet wildcat is already out there somewhere. It’s too obvious to not have been tried, but I’m guessing it would be a very efficient round and nice and quiet for our friends across the pond who have much more trouble than us in getting moderators/suppressors. It’s a bit off topic, but my favourite cartridge conversion is .223 to 300 black out. I dug out all my scanty .223 brass including some neck cracked brass and made some .300blk cases which worked perfectly and have been reloaded several times now. I have to say though I don’t like having brass with the wrong head stamp. .300blk rounds are pretty distinctive though and not exactly easy to confuse with an actual .223 round and shouldn’t chamber in a .223. Maybe I should start a thread on the easiest cartridge conversions :).
 
I’d like a nice lightweight rifle in .327 Federal Magnum for ***** and giggles, but I’m not sure Sussex police would consider this is a valid “reason to acquire”
 
Blaser Ash said:
I have a fair bit of .22 Hornet brass from a TCR 87 single shot rifle I sold on years ago. I had hoped to size it down to .17 Hornet, but I think I would need a series of reducing dies and a lot of dicking about to make it work, so decided it really wasn’t worth the effort, but cutting the cases off to make a pistol or single shot rifle round of larger calibre as suggested by the guy who started this thread, would be pretty straight forward and is a great idea. The other easy option would be necking down to .20 calibre. This would also thicken the brass in the neck area, which would probably work ok without the need for subsequent neck turning. I assume the .20 hornet wildcat is already out there somewhere. It’s too obvious to not have been tried, but I’m guessing it would be a very efficient round and nice and quiet for our friends across the pond who have much more trouble than us in getting moderators/suppressors. It’s a bit off topic, but my favourite cartridge conversion is .223 to 300 black out. I dug out all my scanty .223 brass including some neck cracked brass and made some .300blk cases which worked perfectly and have been reloaded several times now. I have to say though I don’t like having brass with the wrong head stamp. .300blk rounds are pretty distinctive though and not exactly easy to confuse with an actual .223 round and shouldn’t chamber in a .223. Maybe I should start a thread on the easiest cartridge conversions :).
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you'd only need one form die to get it down to 17 Hornet (despite the several steps that are often quoted). For my 17AH, I only have one form die, so likely no different got the 17 Hornady Hornet.

Yes, 20 hornet is already out there. Might try and email The Woodchuck Den, and see if they have any additional info, since Saubiers is no more. If I get time (and remember) I'll take a picture of what I have from the book "The Terrific Twenties" (wildcat book about 20 cal wildcats).
 
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