Advances in ammunition

[whatlike]

Good afternoon all. I have just read an article I found interesting on modern 'high pressure' ammunition, using steel cases instead of brass for obvious reasons. What is peoples take on this?

Link to the article here : Federal Plus Peak 6.5 Creedmoor Ammunition Just Killed the 6.5 PRC

 

[Dunwaters]

Saw that. Increased pressures plus the new gain twist rifle barrels look like a definite paradigm shift.
My beloved .270 has a whole new century of use looming.

 

[finnbear270]

Interesting readmg particularly the Proof barrel bit.

 

[AM_Lillycombe]

6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK

Federal plans to sell the cases for reloading too. It’s the same technology used in the 7mm backcountry.

 

[Andy RV]

It’s all good and well until your barrel is shot out after 500 rounds!

 

[wytonpjs]

6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK

Federal plans to sell the cases for reloading too. It’s the same technology used in the 7mm backcountry.

I have some of the US-made stainless steel .308 cases that I've yet to attempt reloading. I strongly suspect that full-length re-sizing is a no-no and even neck re-sizing is going to be painful!

 

[AM_Lillycombe]

It’s all good and well until your barrel is shot out after 500 rounds!

Apparently, because it uses the same amount of powder the Barrel life is not reduced any more than a standard Creedmoor.

However, I suspect because the projectile will be travelling faster there will be some additional wear but not 6.5 PRC levels of wear.

 

[AM_Lillycombe]

I have some of the US-made stainless steel .308 cases that I've yet to attempt reloading. I strongly suspect that full-length re-sizing is a no-no and even neck re-sizing is going to be painful!

I’ve just been listening to a podcast that says that the steel alloy cases do not Stretch like brass so will not need to be trimmed when reloading.

 

[Andy RV]

Apparently, because it uses the same amount of powder the Barrel life is not reduced any more than a standard Creedmoor.

However, I suspect because the projectile will be travelling faster there will be some additional wear but not 6.5 PRC levels of wear.

The vast majority of barrel wear is due to the erosive effect of the high pressure, temperature and velocity of the combustion gases.

To extract the maximum performance from this cartridge this will require high energy propellant, which naturally result with increased flame temperature.

The US 6.8x51 NGSW running at circa 80k PSI is shooting out hammer forged and chrome plated barrels in 1500 - 2000 rounds with a much lower consistency expectation to the vast majority of shooters on here.

The barrels are going to get a hammering!

 

[AM_Lillycombe]

The vast majority of barrel wear is due to the erosive effect of the high pressure, temperature and velocity of the combustion gases.

To extract the maximum performance from this cartridge this will require high energy propellant, which naturally result with increased flame temperature.

The US 6.8x51 NGSW running at circa 80k PSI is shooting out hammer forged and chrome plated barrels in 1500 - 2000 rounds with a much lower consistency expectation to the vast majority of shooters on here.

The barrels are going to get a hammering!

So 30% higher pressure results in 30% shorter barrel life or even shorter ?

Do you think it will be more or less wear than a 6.5prc doing the same fps with more powder but less pressure?

 

[MTheaded but happy]

To gain that sort of performance increase will come at a cost . There's no such thing as a free lunch .
There'll be an increase in recoil and a reduction in barrel life . Using fast powders to achieve PRC performance could see the barrel life being worse than the PRC . We can only speculate of course .
My thought is , if you want PRC performance buy a PRC .

 

[Andy RV]

It very hard to predict just how much the barrel is likely to suffer due to the variables, barrel material certainly has a significant effect on life, 416 Stainless typically outperforms the chromoly steels.

In my experience machine gun barrels tend to suffer from an exponential rate of degradation as the pressure exceeds 4000 bar, I assume that this pressure surpasses the yield strength of the barrel material which results with rapid wear.

I couldn’t comment on which is likely to result with higher wear, there will be steel cases in 6.5 PRC before you know it so perhaps start there?!

So who’s getting their rifles re-proofed to 80k PSI?…

 

[HonestJohn]

It’s all for the purpose of marketing and sales.

 

[AM_Lillycombe]

To gain that sort of performance increase will come at a cost . There's no such thing as a free lunch .
There'll be an increase in recoil and a reduction in barrel life . Using fast powders to achieve PRC performance could see the barrel life being worse than the PRC . We can only speculate of course .
My thought is , if you want PRC performance buy a PRC .

Buying a new gun for an extra 300 to 400 fps plus dealing with variation etc is a ball ache.

Imagine this scenario, zeroing your existing 6.5creed to this high pressure ammo for a hill stalk or to try and get a big fallow buck on open fields and then once your trophy is firmly above the mantle piece going back the standard wet lettuce ammo when you don’t want to blow a muntjac in half…

 

[Smellydog]

Most common full bores would run continuously for just a few seconds. If fired continuously.
Only Hollywood machine guns go on and on and on...

You can not get away from the effects of an oxygen rich environment, heat and pressure oxidizing the surface a little at a time.

 

[bobo]

It seems like there is a big difference between the English-speaking part of the world and the rest, in terms of calibers.
The English-speaking countries, with the USA in the lead, go for muzzle velocity.
Here in central Europe we go for heavy slow bullets. It probably also has something to do with hunting culture.
Where in the USA i have heard it is considered acceptable to shoot all the way out to 3-400 meters, it is considered unethical to shoot much more than about 150 meters here in central Europe.

Here the good old 9.3x62, with its heavy slow bullet, well on its way to achieving a popularity second only to the .308 Win.
Whereas it's been a few years since I last saw a magnum rifle it doesn't really seem like they're popular anymore.

 

[Smellydog]

It seems like there is a big difference between the English-speaking part of the world and the rest, in terms of calibers.
The English-speaking countries, with the USA in the lead, go for muzzle velocity.
Here in central Europe we go for heavy slow bullets. It probably also has something to do with hunting culture.
Where in the USA i have heard it is considered acceptable to shoot all the way out to 3-400 meters, it is considered unethical to shoot much more than about 150 meters here in central Europe.

Here the good old 9.3x62, with its heavy slow bullet, well on its way to achieving a popularity second only to the .308 Win.
Whereas it's been a few years since I last saw a magnum rifle it doesn't really seem like they're popular anymore.

Another overlooked physical law is that of the force acting on a bullet in an equal and opposing direction when it hits something.
The stress on a super fast bullet is huge and asking for them to reliably expand and stay in one piece is a big ask!
Give me steady anyday.

 

[Reloader708]

Barrels will undoubtedly wear faster but perhaps it won't be such a big deal if they're getting churned out of a cnc machine two a penny.
Maybe well change how we feel about a barrel swap if its an easy/cheap job, just treat them as a consumable?

 

[bobo]

It very hard to predict just how much the barrel is likely to suffer due to the variables, barrel material certainly has a significant effect on life, 416 Stainless typically outperforms the chromoly steels.

416R (416 stainless is very far from the same as 416R, so remember the R) stainless as a material for rifle barrels has quite a few undesirable properties. However, heavy mach barrels have been shown to be significantly more resistant to heat-accelerated wear and surface corrosion in front of the chamber when made from 416R.
The best alloys for making rifle barrels are not stainless, but you don't see them in regular rifles, due to a combination of material cost and they are more difficult (expensive) to machine. And of course they tend to rust, under certain circumstances.

Most common full bores would run continuously for just a few seconds. If fired continuously.
Only Hollywood machine guns go on and on and on...

You can not get away from the effects of an oxygen rich environment, heat and pressure oxidizing the surface a little at a time.

This is the obvious truth many forget when they sit and "advise" the military about which calibers they should have.

But there is of course a civilian market where magnums fit in, example for long shots, such as mountain hunting.

 

[Jeebs]

Quite a niche analogy….however:

Anyone remember the Mitsubishi Evo X FQ400 and 440? Extracting levels of performance beyond the norm resulted in a 3000 mile service interval!

This is the firearms equivalent, performance beyond what was intended comes at a cost.