Animal and Wildlife Bill amendment (Scotland)

Mick9abf

Well-Known Member
Put this here as it may interest some regarding the whole ‘hare control‘ debate which was brought about by Packham/Onekind/enter anti group of choice as another way to attack grouse moors.

A few last minute amendments to the Animal and Wildlife Bill have been forwarded by Alison Johnstone (Green MSP) whereby she seeks to afford full legal protection to Mountain Hares (due to be debated in Holyrood on 17th June 2020) which may interest some.

The reported reason is due to hares being put to unfavourable status in a report to that bastion of expertise the EU following a biast report produced by a now deceased doctor who used the least accurate way of counting hares to produce his report prior to the Werrity review.

For a bit of background to those not aware, the Mountain Hare is present in high numbers (unchanged densities in decades), on managed grouse moors which represent 80% of their range and are controlled as they eat everything, carry high tick burden and worms which affect not just grouse but other red listed ground nested species which strangely seem to thrive on managed areas as opposed to various ‘reserves’ and ‘rewilded’ areas.

They have a season where they can be culled under licences granted by the SNH in areas where landowners wish to prevent damage to trees (forestry don’t tolerate them at all) and habitat (SSSI’s), as well as reducing tick burden which in turn will reduce the likelihood of people accessing the outdoors from Lyme’s Disease.

The wish to plant large swathes of Scottish uplands by various political and conservation groups is well known with Ms Johnstone being quite vocal in her views for fencing large areas to protect said trees.

This of course would be to the detriment of Red Deer who, out with sporting estates, are treated as a pest species as the Scottish Government would appear ‘prima facia’ to see them reduced to negligible numbers.

Perhaps more importantly the red listed Capercaillie who’s numbers are critical point would all be affected as they have a nasty habit of flying into fences causing instant death or injury leading to death. That said there’s a big grant on offer for conservation groups (the usual suspects) to help save the Caper from its second local extinction but then as we’ve seen before, nothing brings in money like something on the Red Listed Species list, while ignoring the obvious pine Martin/badger/fox/stoat etc problem.

An unfortunate truth is that the habitat where mountain hare numbers (and about everything else people want to see) flourish is most likely to be managed for ‘sporting purposes’, in fact this is also the case for several red listed species of waders and raptors, which begs the question of what the real answer is and whether unmanaged areas, or ‘nature reserves’ who do not manage the land in the same way perhaps need to change their practices to support healthy hare numbers as the reality is these are the areas devoid of the mammals.

A new counting scheme has been developed but it would appear that those most vocal about the protection of mountain hare are the least likely to embrace it which begs another question.

The SGA chairman highlighted in an open letter that

“On Langholm Moor, when the gamekeepers were removed because grouse shooting became unviable, the mountain hare population crashed and never recovered. At Langholm the mountain hare is today locally extinct through lack of management.

When hares are not managed upland moors, numbers build for a period then the hares die off. Mountain hares are incredibly susceptible to gut worms. When the ground becomes saturated with hares, the worm larva in the heather is ingested and disease spreads through the population with fatal consequences.

Unlike taking a proportion of the hares when they are in good health, disease related die-off means the population can take up to 15 years to reach the same level. In some cases, it doesn’t.

So, by protecting the mountain hare- as per this amendment- and foregoing any population management, there is a real danger that this rushed decision will actually worsen the conservation status of the mountain hare within a relatively short period of time rather than improve it.”

What is clear is that hare control and the increased parasite and disease they carry will effect the viability of a grouse moor which both suits the Anti agenda and, what better way to get cheap ground under the Land Reform Act than to reduce the sporting value do you can plant trees.

Apparently, in a typical keep going till you get the answer you want method, they are also proposing to try and overturn the amendment to allow the docking of certain species of working dogs....... and so we go round in circles again.

I’ve written to various MSP’s and what is clear is that Labour and the Greens will vote unilaterally in favour of the amendment. SNP I suspect will follow suit en mass as they will expect the Greens support on issues more important to them.

To think this death by a thousand cuts won’t effect stalking eventually is naive in the extreme.
 
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I emailed 8 Angus msp’s yesterday. Liam Kerr (Con) is against the amendment. The only other reply I have received is from Lewis Macdonald (lab) who obviously did not read my email as the reply came from his office boy with a prepared attachment. This is what we are up against!

Thank you for contacting me about the vote in the next few days on amendment 30 tothe Animals and Wildlife (Powers, Protections and Penalties) Bill.

You will be aware that the conservation status of the mountain hare was downgraded to ‘unfavourable’ last year, and for that reason Scottish Labour will support thisamendment to make mountain hares a protected species.

My colleague Claudia Beamish MSP has been calling on the Scottish Government for an evidence-based licensing scheme for driven grouse moors, which should include a ban on the mass culling on hares. We have also called for an audit of hare numbers in Scotland, so that the extent of the risk to their future survival in sustainable numbers can be fully understood.

Labour amendments to the Bill include measures to strengthen enforcement, includinga focus on animal and bird nesting and resting places, marine wildlife crime, the sale of illegal pesticides, and vicarious liability.

Yours sincerely,



Lewis Macdonald MSP
North East Scotland

Lewis Macdonald MSP (North East Scotland), 70 Rosemount Place, Aberdeen AB25 2XJ
Tel: 01224 646333 Email: lewis.macdonald.msp@parliament.scot
 
I emailed 8 Angus msp’s yesterday. Liam Kerr (Con) is against the amendment. The only other reply I have received is from Lewis Macdonald (lab) who obviously did not read my email as the reply came from his office boy with a prepared attachment. This is what we are up against!

Thank you for contacting me about the vote in the next few days on amendment 30 tothe Animals and Wildlife (Powers, Protections and Penalties) Bill.

You will be aware that the conservation status of the mountain hare was downgraded to ‘unfavourable’ last year, and for that reason Scottish Labour will support thisamendment to make mountain hares a protected species.

My colleague Claudia Beamish MSP has been calling on the Scottish Government for an evidence-based licensing scheme for driven grouse moors, which should include a ban on the mass culling on hares. We have also called for an audit of hare numbers in Scotland, so that the extent of the risk to their future survival in sustainable numbers can be fully understood.

Labour amendments to the Bill include measures to strengthen enforcement, includinga focus on animal and bird nesting and resting places, marine wildlife crime, the sale of illegal pesticides, and vicarious liability.

Yours sincerely,



Lewis Macdonald MSP
North East Scotland

Lewis Macdonald MSP (North East Scotland), 70 Rosemount Place, Aberdeen AB25 2XJ
Tel: 01224 646333 Email: lewis.macdonald.msp@parliament.scot

I had a reply from Labour which contained most of that verbatim plus a ‘we (Labour) will all be voting in favour of it’ - I would suspect it will go through.........
 
Fair enough Government making decisions but make them on the basis of solid scientific evidence and not on a whim to try n get more votes. All during the current “pandemic” all their decisions have been supposed scientific evidence so why when a vote is taken on wildlife issues it’s all political where they haven’t got a f***ing clue.
 
Good point above about the scientific evidence and there completely opposing views on scientific facts when it suits there agendas

Would they ever dream of protecting rabbits on low ground farms?
And I'm sure rabbit numbers will have dropped by a high enough % in recent years to make them a species of concern.

Don't suppose 1 of u could post a copy of ur letter or is there any templates out there.
Going to email my local msps, being down the south scot, they most likely won't have a clue about mountain hares, wether that will make a difference to how they vote
 
Ministers were asked to follow due procedures and proper scientific advice. ( this amendment was added at stage 3 of the process very late in the day). The answer we got was more or less “we don’t care about evidence this is politics” a letter from all the sporting bodies has gone to the cabinet secretary and minister suggesting a licensing scheme be adopted (similar to GL). I don’t hold out much hope but we are all pushing hard on this.
Vote tomorrow...
 
So, by protecting the mountain hare- as per this amendment- and foregoing any population management, there is a real danger that this rushed decision will actually worsen the conservation status of the mountain hare within a relatively short period of time rather than improve it.”
This saddens me the legislation has no grounding on actually helping improve hare numbers? How about let’s look at managed land and why there are larger numbers of hares there and work with them to improve habitats elsewhere!!
 
Ministers were asked to follow due procedures and proper scientific advice. ( this amendment was added at stage 3 of the process very late in the day). The answer we got was more or less “we don’t care about evidence this is politics” a letter from all the sporting bodies has gone to the cabinet secretary and minister suggesting a licensing scheme be adopted (similar to GL). I don’t hold out much hope but we are all pushing hard on this.
Vote tomorrow...

They are opportunists pushing through poor legislation via the back door when people are looking elsewhere.

Expect no support from anyone not involved in real conservation or field sports as party politics and Facebook/cute little animal propaganda/agendas rule the rest of the electorate.

I say pushing it because I firmly believe it will be passed whatever scientific evidence is produced at this stage.

As stated in the original post from correspondence I received after emailing various MSP’s all the Green and SLab ones are backing the proposed amendment, the SNP haven’t replied but I would put my mortgage on them doing the same. The only ones admitting opposing it thus far are SCUP.
 
"This of course would be to the detriment of Red Deer who, out with sporting estates, are treated as a pest species as the Scottish Government would appear ‘prima facia’ to see them reduced to negligible numbers."

Consider the wildcat, and SNH's current policy toward "saving" same from extinction:

1) abandon the 'precautionary principle' and ignore those who have the temerity to suggest that the criteria for genetic 'purity' has been set far too narrowly;
2) trap all known 'wildcatty' looking wildcats; neuter those which do not meet the criteria, or euthanase them, they are presently doing both;
3) remove any sufficiently genetically pure examples from place of capture, and place in wildlife park captive breeding programme (thus justifying the great expense of building the latter);
4) Encourage captive bred kittens to 'self-rewild' within their enclosure, prior to
5) propose to release these buscraft-self-educated juveniles into areas considered to be suitable for them, but not where their parent animals may have dwelled,
6) all the while leaving obvious stray/feral moggies which do not look like Wildcats to carry on expanding their range, whilst
7) assuring the minister they're on the right path, and
9) getting the UK taxpayer to fund their programme!

Behold - 9 UK taxpayer-funded, SNH approved rules for the continuation of 'scientific' life, to ensure the wildcat hasn't a cat's chance in hell of surviving where they themselves wish to or already dwell, no- it's the lovely National Park, or nothing, tiddles!
 
"This of course would be to the detriment of Red Deer who, out with sporting estates, are treated as a pest species as the Scottish Government would appear ‘prima facia’ to see them reduced to negligible numbers."

Consider the wildcat, and SNH's current policy toward "saving" same from extinction:

1) abandon the 'precautionary principle' and ignore those who have the temerity to suggest that the criteria for genetic 'purity' has been set far too narrowly;
2) trap all known 'wildcatty' looking wildcats; neuter those which do not meet the criteria, or euthanase them, they are presently doing both;
3) remove any sufficiently genetically pure examples from place of capture, and place in wildlife park captive breeding programme (thus justifying the great expense of building the latter);
4) Encourage captive bred kittens to 'self-rewild' within their enclosure, prior to
5) propose to release these buscraft-self-educated juveniles into areas considered to be suitable for them, but not where their parent animals may have dwelled,
6) all the while leaving obvious stray/feral moggies which do not look like Wildcats to carry on expanding their range, whilst
7) assuring the minister they're on the right path, and
9) getting the UK taxpayer to fund their programme!

Behold - 9 UK taxpayer-funded, SNH approved rules for the continuation of 'scientific' life, to ensure the wildcat hasn't a cat's chance in hell of surviving where they themselves wish to or already dwell, no- it's the lovely National Park, or nothing, tiddles!

Nothing gets funding like an endangered species..... best way to keep the money coming in, hand cash over to any of the ‘Conservation/Protection’ charities who will ensure that the species remain endangered - #neverstopthegravytrainchoochoo!!
 
Sadly, none of this is of any surprise. I used to think I was paranoid, but I now realise I was just kidding myself.....
This is just a part of the Scottish "Government" in its headlong rush to get rid of all fieldsports/bloodsports as soon as possible. They have been doing the same to the Salmon and Sea Trout fisheries for years - ignoring every piece of evidence that the fake salmon farms are killing off the wild stocks with the long term aim of being able to stop all Salmon/Sea Trout fishing as they will be declared as a red listed , so all the horrible well heeled types will not be able to buy rivers and kill poor fish....
Now we have the increasing emphasis on killing all our "vermin" deer and stopping the well heeled gentry (sic) buying up estates to shoot deer with their tweed clad pals - better to flog the estates to tax dodging foreigners who'll kill all the deer to "Rewild" the land.
The above piece about Hares is just another attempt to control Grouse moors to stop well heeled types going off and butchering hordes of grouse (and killing legions of raptors of course)…..
So we'll reach a point where all native species are red listed and the politicians can cheerfully ban all fishing, hunting and shooting.... result!
Of course the SNP will go for this as they have an election next year to cling on to power for another four years of utter drivel, the Green fairies will do whatever they can to stop the horrid rich land owners, Labour will sadly come up with the same crap about fieldsports they did when they were in power with the Libdems and they are all desperate to please the central belt voters who don't give a flying hoot about the countryside, but hate the well heeled toffs slaughtering everything and are quite happy to watch the emptying of the wilder part of this country of all folk apart from B&B owners and tea shops!
 
The SNP would be entirely happy if there wasn't a single living creature or plant left in Scotland. It would be far preferable to the current situation for them.
 
Sadly, none of this is of any surprise. I used to think I was paranoid, but I now realise I was just kidding myself.....
This is just a part of the Scottish "Government" in its headlong rush to get rid of all fieldsports/bloodsports as soon as possible. They have been doing the same to the Salmon and Sea Trout fisheries for years - ignoring every piece of evidence that the fake salmon farms are killing off the wild stocks with the long term aim of being able to stop all Salmon/Sea Trout fishing as they will be declared as a red listed , so all the horrible well heeled types will not be able to buy rivers and kill poor fish....
Now we have the increasing emphasis on killing all our "vermin" deer and stopping the well heeled gentry (sic) buying up estates to shoot deer with their tweed clad pals - better to flog the estates to tax dodging foreigners who'll kill all the deer to "Rewild" the land.
The above piece about Hares is just another attempt to control Grouse moors to stop well heeled types going off and butchering hordes of grouse (and killing legions of raptors of course)…..
So we'll reach a point where all native species are red listed and the politicians can cheerfully ban all fishing, hunting and shooting.... result!
Of course the SNP will go for this as they have an election next year to cling on to power for another four years of utter drivel, the Green fairies will do whatever they can to stop the horrid rich land owners, Labour will sadly come up with the same crap about fieldsports they did when they were in power with the Libdems and they are all desperate to please the central belt voters who don't give a flying hoot about the countryside, but hate the well heeled toffs slaughtering everything and are quite happy to watch the emptying of the wilder part of this country of all folk apart from B&B owners and tea shops!

A small but important edit is to add ‘the Green fairies will also side with anyone that can make their irrelevance seem important if even just for one bill’..........
 
"Perhaps more importantly the red listed Capercaillie who’s numbers are critical point would all be affected as they have a nasty habit of flying into fences causing instant death or injury leading to death"

Or so the deer annihilators would wish you to believe, but I know that trappers and rangers were told to go out at the time of the original hoo-ha surrounding this aspect and 'find capercaillie fence strikes, and don't come back before you do'; hard documented evidence of this phenomena is not much in evidence, but the problem is vastly overstated, and readily countered by simply making the fences more visible, and especially so when compared to the 90+% predation rate on the nest, which is rather better documented and recorded.
 
Must admit don't know about caper, but when u ask keepers with plenty of black grouse ( esp black cocks) fence strikes never used to be much off an issue until BoP numbers esp Goshawks increased.
The birds are in such a panic to flee lekking sites there flying into fences they wouldn't normally.
 
"Perhaps more importantly the red listed Capercaillie who’s numbers are critical point would all be affected as they have a nasty habit of flying into fences causing instant death or injury leading to death"

Or so the deer annihilators would wish you to believe, but I know that trappers and rangers were told to go out at the time of the original hoo-ha surrounding this aspect and 'find capercaillie fence strikes, and don't come back before you do'; hard documented evidence of this phenomena is not much in evidence, but the problem is vastly overstated, and readily countered by simply making the fences more visible, and especially so when compared to the 90+% predation rate on the nest, which is rather better documented and recorded.
I've walked fence lines in woods where I know that there are plenty caper (having seen up to a dozen in an evening), just to see if there were any carcasses. Not found one yet. This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but I suspect that fences are being unduly blamed for the reduction in caper numbers.
 
Fatwa time! Hard to understand what the point of having a Scottish government is when it can only make wrong or politically loaded decisions, ignoring the evidence at every turn.
 
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