Another Blaser

[Mungo]

Something I've never really understood in all these discussions: conventional turn bolt action seems incredibly simple and functional. What is gained by having a straight pull that appears considerably more complicated?

I admit to having only handled a straight pull in a shop, but there doesn't really seem to be much difference in terms of speed of action or noisyness. They seem to work perfectly well and do the job they're designed to do - but seem to be unnecessarily complex in doing so.

 

[Chasey]

Just in case anyone is under the impression that only Blasers have problems: Firearms Recalls - Ammunition Recalls - The Gun Guy

or: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/safet...567/07&exclude_search_term=0&search_year=2007

So you might also want to worry if you own a Tikka, Sako, Howa, Weatherby, Remington......



I do wonder what the point of these threads really is?

Do the protagonists think that their dire warnings will somehow change things, cause the rifle owners to "see the light", ditch their rifles, and go on to lead happy and fulfilled lives?

Do the defenders think that they will be able to change the opinions of the protagonists?

Let's face it, neither seems very likely.

Aren't there more important things to worry about?

Or is it just a way of driving up post counts?

You indicate a design issue that resulted in a safety recall??

The recall was a result of a theoretical failure mode of thease actions which could result in the fireing pin going streight back into the shooter. But NO accidents were recorded.

In the Blassers case its a proven fact the mechinisum can go back into the face of the shooter and several accidents have happened?

Where is the safety recall on the Blaser R93?


I have nothing against Blasser and frankly if I had the money id love a R8 Pro Sucsess.

I even went as far as priceing it up and considered selling my CCRebreather to fund it

But I still dont like the design of the R93

ATB

Chasey

 

[Chasey]

As a leftie I like the fact its a simple thing to have the gun left or right handed action but my primary reasion for wanting a Blasser is the balance and the way it feels

If the R8 had a bolt and was available in left handed, i'd still buy it.


ATB

Chasey

 

[mchughcb]

I'm not sure what is faster. The speed of light or the speed at which a blaser blow up is reported on hunting forums around the world in all sorts of translations.

We had a blaser blowup down here. I've seen the photos of the guys face. Police were called in. The owner was asked to submit his blaser ot the dealership so they can send it back to Izny for inspection. But no, the guy prefers not to submit the rifle a 338 Lapua magnum nor the reloads nor the strange procedure he was using.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[White Hart]

I wasnt going to get into yet another Blaser thread but well im here now...

The comparison photo between the R93 and R8 bolt heads show that the R8 collet design has an improved steeper angle to engage and the profile of the R93 is indeed a little shallower. These are isolated incidents and I would hazard a guess that there are more turn bolt incidents than straight pull, due to volume.

As for the engineering design of the system it is used in 1000's of high pressure situations with the slip collet design. We use a system with operating pressures of 10 - 15k psi on subsea well head / BOP capping systems.

https://www.c-a-m.com/products-and-...ssure-control-equipment/dwhc-collet-connector

Anyway im an ugly bugger so it the worst happens and I end up with a face like a meaty feast pizza, I'll get them to put me back together like George Cloney - he gets all the girls...

 

[Chasey]

I wasnt going to get into yet another Blaser thread but well im here now...

The comparison photo between the R93 and R8 bolt heads show that the R8 collet design has an improved steeper angle to engage and the profile of the R93 is indeed a little shallower. These are isolated incidents and I would hazard a guess that there are more turn bolt incidents than straight pull, due to volume.

As for the engineering design of the system it is used in 1000's of high pressure situations with the slip collet design. We use a system with operating pressures of 10 - 15k psi on subsea well head / BOP capping systems.

https://www.c-a-m.com/products-and-...ssure-control-equipment/dwhc-collet-connector

Anyway im an ugly bugger so it the worst happens and I end up with a face like a meaty feast pizza, I'll get them to put me back together like George Cloney - he gets all the girls...

The CAD drawing you referance apears to resemble the R8 design, not the R93 design? Thers a full sleive collet lock?


PS I have little doubt that the failures were as a result of improper loads but as a home loader myself I also have little doubt such cockups can happen

ATB

Chasey

 

[willie_gunn]

You indicate a design issue that resulted in a safety recall??

The recall was a result of a theoretical failure mode of thease actions which could result in the fireing pin going streight back into the shooter. But NO accidents were recorded.

In the Blassers case its a proven fact the mechinisum can go back into the face of the shooter and several accidents have happened?

Where is the safety recall on the Blaser R93?


I have nothing against Blasser and frankly if I had the money id love a R8 Pro Sucsess.

I even went as far as priceing it up and considered selling my CCRebreather to fund it

But I still dont like the design of the R93

ATB

Chasey

If you go to the top of the link I provided you'll find there's a recall for the R93 because of issues around non-stainless-steel firing pins, so they are not averse to issuing recall notices.

For Sako you can also search on Google for "Sako Blow Up", or go here (Firearms Recalls - Ammunition Recalls - The Gun Guy), here (http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html), here (Speaking of Sako [Archive] - Jesse's Hunting & Outdoors Forum. California Hunting, Fishing & More) or sundry other places. There's plenty of documentary evidence of some fairly catastrophic failures, including photos.

"But the bolt didn't fly back in the shooters face" I hear you cry. "So what", I'd answer.

How many accidents have there been? Compared to how many rifles sold? If it was an inherently unsafe design - as some are asserting - where are the hundreds of accidents? Maybe Blaser paid everyone hush money, or perhaps there's a conspiracy theory at work?? The whole thing is ridiculous.

Life is one big risk, from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to sleep. Compared to pulling the trigger on my rifle I stand an infinitely higher chance of being killed crossing the road, driving in my car, drinking a beer, eating a meal or even using a computer, yet somehow I manage to survive.

 

[Vipa]

Something I've never really understood in all these discussions: conventional turn bolt action seems incredibly simple and functional. What is gained by having a straight pull that appears considerably more complicated?

I admit to having only handled a straight pull in a shop, but there doesn't really seem to be much difference in terms of speed of action or noisyness. They seem to work perfectly well and do the job they're designed to do - but seem to be unnecessarily complex in doing so.

Certainly in the case of Blaser its not all about speed of reloading, that is just one marketing point they use.. The biggest advantage is - no bolt = no receiver, the bolt head locks directly into the barrel saving 3 or 4 inches. That doesn't sound a lot but 3-4 inches off the overall length of a hunting rifle whilst maintaining barrel length makes a huge difference in the field.. Lack of receiver also means the only logical place to mount the scope is on the barrel which in turn makes accuracy much more repeatable when switching barrels out..

Other manufacturers who have jumped on the straight pull bandwagon have kept a receiver in place thus taking away any potential advantage other than speed simplicity of movement of straightpull over turnbolt.

At the end of the day and as someone mentioned on a previous blaser bashing thread, the turnbolt rifle is 19th century technology.. things can be bettered, things can be improved. whether you like them or not Blasers are incredible feats of engineering and are no more likely to cause serious injuries than any other rifle given a bad set of circumstances, probably statistically far less so.

Always amazes me that we never get any sensationalist posts on here when any other make of rifle fails for whatever reason!

 

[Dorsettaff]

Just pause for a mo..... In this wonderfully litigious age (the UK being 2nd only to America in running to a lawyer to sue for all and sundry) do you think a company would continue to produce and supply a firearm with such an inherently dangerous mechanism as the "Russian Roulette Design Bolt Head" of an R93, knowing that its failure would not simply result in a broken toe nail but in life changing facial injuries or death? Even if the chance is the proverbial miniscule?

There are many armchair and "wet fingered" engineers out there who can pull holes in the design of everything from the wheel ("It'll never catch on!") , through simple levers , the Saturn V rocket and the Large Hadron Collider. As all engineers know if you hit something with a big enough hammer, enough times, it will fail.


Blaser investigate every failure, most recently the Scandinavian incident where factory ammo was implicated but was alas revealed to be dodgy homeloads.

If there was a problem or a suspicion of a problem there would be an instant and mass recall! (See Remington)

Some of us love 'em, some of us hate 'em and sensationalist stories from ill informed half baked media just fuel that debate. The media by default sensationalises stories to sell copy and a hunters gun blowing up in his own face is a great way to peddle "hot metal" in more ways than one.....


Anyway...must dash.....lots of muddled up pistol powders to compress behind 100gr bullets in .243 cases to test in my R93 ..........

 

[ejg]

Willie, there is a huge difference in a recall be it by Blaser or as in the case of Sako due to faulty or wrong materials being used vs accidents happening with perfectly standard rifles, no faults detected other that some just blew up. You seem to also forget, oversee, brush under the table the issue of "when it fails how does it fail". Little like the safety on a car, development of steering columns etc. Just think of the issue with the little Merc that injured a tester doing the Elk test. Things can go wrong but then one must improve the product. I don't think Sako ever used that particular grade of steel in their barrels again.
Using other statistics to show how safe some products are, is just BS, tell that to the injured people and see what they say. Blaser has a serious issue with that particular rifle. It has nothing to do with Blaser bashing as one hardly ever hears of complaints or blow ups with other Blaser rifles.

One question to you, how many badly injured shooters would you accept as being fine for every say hundred thousand rifles produced? Or what figure should be the goal of a rifle manufacturer?
edi

 

[Dorsettaff]

Blaser has a serious issue with that particular rifle.

So why hasn't it been pulled? Why are they still sold, used etc

Every company takes a view on what is an acceptable risk, especially airlines. Both airlines and aircraft manufacturers know that one of their planes will fall out of the sky when the "summation of tolerances" is breached. Coldly and clinically they factor in the price of compensation e.g £1m per passenger, into their costs. If they "lose" 250 people in one go, they take the financial hit and move on.

It would be interesting to see if Blaser have a similar outlook. I doubt it. One "accident" through material failure is one thing, an accident through knowing poor design is another. A civil case on that merit would potentially destroy both the brand and likely the company.

I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the Private Fraser "We're all dooooomed" approach!

 

[willie_gunn]

"Blaser has a serious issue with that particular rifle".

Would you care to share the correspondence between yourself and Blaser on this matter, or is this campaign being waged solely on the Stalking Directory?

 

[EMcC]

None of these arguments bother me. I have a Blaser R93 and am more than happy with it.
I do reload but then I have been doing so in various calibres for over sixty years so am aware of what to expect if complacent.
If I took everything posted on web sites as gospel, every time I pull the trigger I would have to close my eyes and hope nothing bad happens but luckily, or otherwise, so far nothing bad has happened, nor do I expect it to.

 

[ejg]

Would you care to share the correspondence between yourself and Blaser on this matter, or is this campaign being waged solely on the Stalking Directory?

How many injuries are acceptable? If you would manufacture rifles how would you explain that figure to a judge/H&S.?
edi

 

[Dorsettaff]

Says the one-eyed 3 fingered R93 user!

+1

 

[willie_gunn]

How many injuries are acceptable? If you would manufacture rifles how would you explain that figure to a judge/H&S.?
edi

It's just on the Stalking Directory then

 

[Dorsettaff]

Willie,

We are the only ones left with hands, fingers and eyes to be able to see and use keyboards and websites!!

 

[mchughcb]

You make up your own mind.

 

[geoshot]

I really don't get all the emotion and vitriol that the mention of Blaser generates.
I used to own an R93 for which I had a couple of barrels, so, clearly I didn't hate Blasers - but to me it was just a rifle which did a job of work for me, I once upon a time needed/wanted a take-down rifle and chose a Blaser.
As suggested by the last sentence, I sold my Blaser (clearly I'll be a heretic to some, a new convert to others) cos I had a new rifle built which I like so much that the Blaser ended up being a dust collector.
A Blaser is just a machine, a rifle, it's not perfect but it's not a pile of ****e either.
Blasers do seem to fail a lot less often than do other makes though, and usually as a result of user error.
There, everybody can hate me now...............

 

[mchughcb]

Well when one has several mistresses in the safe, at some stage they will collect dust.

If you want a real takedown mistress then the K95 stutzen my current favourite.