approved for a renewal, do i need the docs in my possession to hold the firearms if it doesnt come through ?

[longtooth]

so this is a question for all as i have been involved in a to and fro e mail situation the last couple of weeks regards renewal, and in case the application of the law is differrent across the uk which im thinking not , but im in Scotland

my renewal docs are late-ish coming through (only one week to go before they run out) the firearms team have replied to my queeries by e mail stating i am being renewed and that they are waiting on the certs being printed and posted to me, i have replied this morning though saying that i believe i cannot legally hold the firearms unless im in physcal possession of them and they replied stating that is not the case and as it has been approved im ok!
an obvious concern is - are they wrong ? as i know most of these dept's are now staffed by civvies ? who might not know the legislation

 

[baguio]

so this is a question for all as i have been involved in a to and fro e mail situation the last couple of weeks regards renewal, and in case the application of the law is differrent across the uk which im thinking not , but im in Scotland

my renewal docs are late-ish coming through (only one week to go before they run out) the firearms team have replied to my queeries by e mail stating i am being renewed and that they are waiting on the certs being printed and posted to me, i have replied this morning though saying that i believe i cannot legally hold the firearms unless im in physcal possession of them and they replied stating that is not the case and as it has been approved im ok!
an obvious concern is - are they wrong ? as i know most of these dept's are now staffed by civvies ? who might not know the legislation

Have you done a search on here? Perhaps in the legal section?

 

[bfltd0]

Some of my acquaintances have received their certs on or around the renewal date, regardless of when the application was submitted.

If it was going to be late, the FLD should have either told you they will issue a temporary permit (as it was their fault) or told you to make alternative arrangements to store your weapons (hello, RFD) as you didn't submit the application in time.

If you submitted the application 8 weeks or more before the renewal date, you should automatically be issued a temporary permit.

 

[hogey]

In England they will send you a letter to say you are entitled to hold the firearms you have applied for an FAC for renewal .
They did for me at least.
May differ in Scotland

 

[owdnorthener]

Do you have a current FAC that's being renewed ? You could ask for a temporary permit, under section 7 to keep you legal.
I have just renewed my tickets and an accompanying letter states, I cannot use my new one until the old one expires. I would say you need be covered.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Tell them you want a section 7 temporary permit, because you cannot legally be in possession of firearms unless you have a valid FAC - or a temporary permit (which does not allow you to buy ammunition)
That should put a fire under their backsides because issuing temporary permits because they have not done a renewal in time is a black mark against that department, and when the HMIC comes along, one of the first things they look at is how many temporary permits have been issued - big is bad for the firearms dept.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[stubear]

You cant have the guns in your possession with only an expired licence so far as I'm aware, and whilst the email from your FLO might get you out of some level of trouble the law states that the police can seize your guns if you dont have lawful authority to possess them. I suspect that an email from someone in the FLO probably isn't good enough.

They should be issuing you with a temporary S7 permit to keep what you have and bridge you until you get your renewed ticket. Or get them to dust off the Epson, print the ticket out and get it in the mail to you! Why that should take a week I have no idea..

Heres some more info - Certificate renewals

Think of it like this - if your passport expired and you had a trip coming up, and the Home Office emailed you a note saying "we're sorry we haven't been able to renew your passport in time but you can still go off to Lanzarote without it, we promise" do you think you'd make it onto the plane?

 

[paul o']

Call them and say am I ok to hold and go about my shooting ? as your still a cert holder and still allowed to hold your Firearms , its there cock up after all , they may say you can't go out ,you defo won't be able to buy ammo . this is what happened to me years ago I requested a sec 7 and gave it a week then drove to them and collected my cert !! . this year it was a full 360 As I got my cert a full 4 weeks before it was due ! but I still had to wait for it to become active to obtain the new rifles .

 

[andyk]

Surely it depends whether they have you down on their records as having a current FAC? I can't see why your possession, or not as the case may be, of the physical FAC is determinative. If you lose your FAC, send it for variation etc you don't have a physical FAC in your possession but you are still licensed as you are still down on the system as being so. You don't, by way of example, have to have a s7 permit, or hand your rifles to a RFD, in the intervening period of a variation after which your 'old' and unvaried FAC is destroyed and replaced with a 'new' varied one.

I would want to know from them, in very clear form, whether what they mean is (a) you have been approved for renewal and it will happen in time but it has not happened yet, or (b) the renewal is completed, systems updated etc but the physical FAC has not reached you.

In the former case you need to take steps to remain legal, in the latter I cannot see you would as a search against your name would reveal you have a current FAC (being the new, renewed one they are yet to provide in physical form).

 

[muddy42]

In my opinion, it is not a good idea to insist on a different certificate (section 7) when the FEO is already struggling to issue a comparatively standard certificate (FAC). It may well be their fault, but getting cross and making demands won't help.

Ask the FEO what he wants you to do in writing. He may simply say sit tight or if everyone is being cautious, to take your rifles to an RFD. I am lucky, in that I share access and rifles with other FAC holders who renew on a different cycle.

Be aware that if you get your applications in 8 weeks before expiry, you get an automatic 8 week extension.

 

[Apthorpe]

Worth pointing out that the only people who could prosecute you for having the guns, are the ones who say that you don't need to have received the new certificate. If you have that either in writing or a record of who you spoke to and when, then in the real world, you'll be fine.

 

[Stalker62]

Your FEO/FLM still has a week to get your new certificates out to you - they will.

If you got your application in, eight weeks before expiry, then you get an automatic legal eight-week extension, to your expiry date.

Emails, post-it-notes, and fag packet scribblings do not qualify as a lawful document.

You need to have either and FAC/SGC in place or a S7 permit (whilst the authorities catch up).

However - let's just take a calm pragmatic view.

Legislation has not caught up with technology. You will be shown on the PNC as being "legit".

No one is getting prosecuted by the authorities for non-possession of anything, when it is the authorities who have not given you what it is you need to posses.

Relax.

All will be well.

 

[enfieldspares]

You need either a valid FAC or a s7 to lawfully have your firearms in your possession. However as long as either remain valid you do not physically need the actual document in your house or on your person. The FAC (and the s7) both evidence that you are lawfully entitled to be in possession of such.

But a "letter from the Firearms Department" saying you are OK to remain in possession is NOT. It is neither an FAC nor a s7 and remember that it is Parliament makes the law and not the Chief Constable's whim to dispense with it.

Others will advise on the "eight week extension" during renewal in the last Firearms Act as I don't know enough to offer such advice. But it is here anyway for others to help you with.

Circular 014/2018: Firearms - limited extension of validity of firearm and shotgun certificates

www.gov.uk

 

[longtooth]

Thanks for all the replies, i will clarify some points made
yes i have a license at the moment that expires next week
i have had separate e mails over the last week or so stating, yes im being renewed, then yes i have been approved and awaiting printing of the certificate, (so should be fully visible on the system with both the old cert and the new one to be issued) so hopefully its in the post-not lost in transit etc and i receive it before next week .

i have to say though they were very thorough this time around , spoke at length to my referees, permissions/lease etc and on the home visit even noted after asking me if it was ok ? how much powder and bullet heads, primers etc i had as i home load too ( he physically counted them box by box, noting each type and weight and what id use them for ? -got to say i have no concerns with this ) the guy knew his stuff and i guess he was determining if i knew mine
i have nothing but good things to say about the process and the guy doing the checking , as someone who wants to stay on the right side of the law and recognises a firearm license is a privilege that can be removed -its concerning when it comes down to the wire !

it was kind of funny when he said the chief constable wanted them checking all the permissions physically and he asked where my ground was, and i said i had permissions from the borders, throughout fife and past perth and in to the start of the highlands maybe the delay is waiting on him getting his new hip

 

[Pedro]

If you've got a current firearms certificate, then you can possess your firearms. If the police say it is current and simply waiting some admin function (such as getting printed) then that's the way it is. Just the same as if you apply for a variation and send off your ticket to be updated, you don't have to lodge your guns elsewhere until it comes back!

Yes, the cops can seize your firearms if you can't produce your certificate. But a quick check will reveal you actually do have a certificate, so the chances of that happening these days is so remote to be not worth worrying about. The same way the cops check your car insurance if they stop you. They in all likelihood have already checked your insurance before pulling you over. So to give you a "producer" to take your insurance to the station isn't really something that happens these days hardly at all.

You are right to ask if you are unsure, but fear not. The only problem you might have before the post arrives with your physical certificate is buying ammo. But ensuring you have enough ammo whist your certificates are away is something you should do anyway really.

 

[longtooth]

If you've got a current firearms certificate, then you can possess your firearms. If the police say it is current and simply waiting some admin function (such as getting printed) then that's the way it is. Just the same as if you apply for a variation and send off your ticket to be updated, you don't have to lodge your guns elsewhere until it comes back!

Yes, the cops can seize your firearms if you can't produce your certificate. But a quick check will reveal you actually do have a certificate, so the chances of that happening these days is so remote to be not worth worrying about. The same way the cops check your car insurance if they stop you. They in all likelihood have already checked your insurance before pulling you over. So to give you a "producer" to take your insurance to the station isn't really something that happens these days hardly at all.

You are right to ask if you are unsure, but fear not. The only problem you might have before the post arrives with your physical certificate is buying ammo. But ensuring you have enough ammo whist your certificates are away is something you should do anyway really.

Cheers pedro,
only concerned about the legalities, the availability of ammo isnt a concern as i load

 

[bogtrotter]

so this is a question for all as i have been involved in a to and fro e mail situation the last couple of weeks regards renewal, and in case the application of the law is differrent across the uk which im thinking not , but im in Scotland

my renewal docs are late-ish coming through (only one week to go before they run out) the firearms team have replied to my queeries by e mail stating i am being renewed and that they are waiting on the certs being printed and posted to me, i have replied this morning though saying that i believe i cannot legally hold the firearms unless im in physcal possession of them and they replied stating that is not the case and as it has been approved im ok!
an obvious concern is - are they wrong ? as i know most of these dept's are now staffed by civvies ? who might not know the legislation

Seems a bit strange something seems to have gone badly wrong Police Scotland are sending out renewal notices
approximately 16 weeks before your present certificate expires its up to you to download and fill in the application
arrange to have the letter for your Doctor delivered to his surgery and to pay the fee for your certificate either by bank
transfer or by online banking.
I received my letter 12 days ago have filled application paid the fee and deposited the Doctors letter received a call
today from the Firearms Department interview next week with Firearms Officer and my present certificate does not
expire until 12/09/21

 

[Liveonce]

If you applied in good time your certificate is automatically extended by 8 weeks.

The new provisions in section 28B will apply where an application is made to the police for the renewal of a certificate at least 8 weeks before the certificate is due to expire, but the police are unable to decide the application before the certificate expires. In these circumstances, the validity of the certificate is automatically extended for a period of 8 weeks or until the police decide the application, whichever occurs first. The certificate’s terms and conditions will continue to apply during this period

From

Circular 014/2018: Firearms - limited extension of validity of firearm and shotgun certificates

www.gov.uk

 

[bobthedug]

Seems a bit strange something seems to have gone badly wrong Police Scotland are sending out renewal notices
approximately 16 weeks before your present certificate expires its up to you to download and fill in the application
arrange to have the letter for your Doctor delivered to his surgery and to pay the fee for your certificate either by bank
transfer or by online banking.
I received my letter 12 days ago have filled application paid the fee and deposited the Doctors letter received a call
today from the Firearms Department interview next week with Firearms Officer and my present certificate does not
expire until 12/09/21

Mine was also renewed recently and pretty much same timescales as you. I was interviewed via telephone due to the Covid restrictions and my new Certificate arrived the day before the old one expired. I was informed beforehand it was being processed and there were no issues so I didn't worry.

 

[longtooth]

Seems a bit strange something seems to have gone badly wrong Police Scotland are sending out renewal notices
approximately 16 weeks before your present certificate expires its up to you to download and fill in the application
arrange to have the letter for your Doctor delivered to his surgery and to pay the fee for your certificate either by bank
transfer or by online banking.
I received my letter 12 days ago have filled application paid the fee and deposited the Doctors letter received a call
today from the Firearms Department interview next week with Firearms Officer and my present certificate does not
expire until 12/09/21

yeah, got the application form back in march, the docs form along with the rest was signed by doc next day and handed in the next day to the station, and paid immediately electronically, my mate had his done and dusted in a fortnight , so yeah i think something went wrong along the way, the officer did have to come back out and get confirmation much later that it was paid and when ? so thinking that might have been the issue ?