Ban an fuel burning cars coming, time to invest in diesel.

User00040

Well-Known Member
Seen that BoJo has had another bright idea and decided to bring forward the ban on fuel burning cars.

For whatever the current government does, doing the opposite is probably going to leave you quids in.

Get ready for 2030, buy some diesel storage units, have a few reliable diesel cars on hand, get yourself fuel secure.

Very little confidence in this plan, supposedly going to be planting 75k hectares of trees every year to 'carbon offset'.

1- Where are they getting the land to plant them on?

2- Which cronies will be making a killing on trees like they did on PPE? What kind of trees??

3- Does it matter how well these trees grow? As usual this is optics not meaningful action.

Thoughts?
 
The ban I believe is on sales of new petrol and Diesels. So older cars for the moment will still be able to be used and fuel will be available. I suspect the price of secondhand diesel and petrol engined cars will improve significantly after 2030 so potentially a good investment in a few years.
 
Boris is an absolutely moron.

250bn investment immediately post what’s shaping up to be a biblical recession and we all know how well the government costs it’s initiatives so likely to be far higher.

Absolutely beggars belief that when people are literally losing thousands of pounds a week from there incomes this clown can with a straight face put this to the public. Shocking.
 
The proposal does not ban the sale of new cars and vans which used petrol or diesel
It says that all new cars and vans sold from 2030 onwards must be at least partially powered by an energy source other than petrol or diesel.
In other words, hybrids, and self charging hybrids could still be sold legally.
Whether you call them hybrids, mild hybrids, soft hybrids or that most misleading description "self charging hybrid" these are all vehicles which still have a fossil fuel burning engine plus a small traction battery and an electric motor.
They can improve fuel economy in city driving because the engine will switch off when the vehicle is stopped and the electric motor can get the vehicle moving and propel it a low speeds.
However, range on pure electric power is minimal (typically less than one mile) and the IC engine will kick in as soon as any sort power is needed
For open road driving the hybrid system provides no benefits and the additional weight and complexity of the vehicle due to the traction battery and the hybrid drive system makes it a pointless buy for anyone not doing most, if not all of their driving in a city.

Cheers

Bruce
 
I agree that we mustn’t shoot ourselves in the foot by switching to more expensive forms of energy whilst our foreign competitors don’t. However I must add that I bought a Tesla 6 months ago and it’s fantastic, the future is electric for sure. I still have a defender but if I could convert it to electric I would.
the problem with electric cars is the lack of range on many models, for me it needs to be able to do 200+ miles on a charge minimum, many are still under 200. The Tesla 3 that we have does 330 which is ample, it ridiculously cheap to run compared with diesel, about 3-4p per mile for the leccy. The cars themselves are expensive though.
another thing to remember is that the charging network is expanding rapidly, and the fast chargers are really fast, I can recharge mine from 0-80% in about 30 mins if necessary, so after 300 miles driving you stop for a sandwich a **** and a coffee and by the time you’ve done that it’s good to go.
another benefit is that right now the government are falling over themselves to get you to buy one, there’s interest free loans, grants, there’s no benefit in kind tax and half the chargers out there are free to use! Imagine if your local council gave away free diesel! But ours gives away free leccy...
 
I dont see how you can plant 75k hectares of trees every year and continue to use land for 300k houses every year... we are an island after all.
Like others on here, and elsewhere, i dont see how everyone can charge up their car (plus all the hgv) without the national grid failing. How many new power stations will we need?
I suppose the price of electric cars will one day come down, but the last time i looked a Nissan Leaf, which is useless to me, was about £25k.
10 years? I cant see it myself. Its easy to make promises that far ahead.
 
You’re spot on with the electricity supply, it would have to go up massively. Plus haulage will likely need to remain diesel powered.. as will tractors excavators etc..
but for your daily drive electric is the future.

That said there are a lot of interesting things coming down the pipe. Such as home battery storage. For years we’ve had no way of storing electricity so the supply has had to match the demand exactly, this has always been difficult. Now with so much renewable energy the problem has got worse as the wind doesn’t blow or the sun shine consistently. But with battery technology your electric car can be used to balance the grid, so you get a cheaper deal on your electricity if you agree to allow the grid to use your car to ‘dump’ unneeded electricity. Wind farm owners are currently paid to stop their turbines if the supply exceeds the demand, with more batteries out there you can take advantage of those windy summer nights when supply exceeds demand and charge up your car or home battery for less. Then when supplies fall short the grid will be able to suck power back out of your car or home battery. You can already get these deals from some electric suppliers...
 
I agree that we mustn’t shoot ourselves in the foot by switching to more expensive forms of energy whilst our foreign competitors don’t. However I must add that I bought a Tesla 6 months ago and it’s fantastic, the future is electric for sure. I still have a defender but if I could convert it to electric I would.
the problem with electric cars is the lack of range on many models, for me it needs to be able to do 200+ miles on a charge minimum, many are still under 200. The Tesla 3 that we have does 330 which is ample, it ridiculously cheap to run compared with diesel, about 3-4p per mile for the leccy. The cars themselves are expensive though.
another thing to remember is that the charging network is expanding rapidly, and the fast chargers are really fast, I can recharge mine from 0-80% in about 30 mins if necessary, so after 300 miles driving you stop for a sandwich a **** and a coffee and by the time you’ve done that it’s good to go.
another benefit is that right now the government are falling over themselves to get you to buy one, there’s interest free loans, grants, there’s no benefit in kind tax and half the chargers out there are free to use! Imagine if your local council gave away free diesel! But ours gives away free leccy...

That's fantastic, until the subsidy and freebie tap turns off.

First question. Do you actually get 330 miles range without driving like a granny/undertaker? I'll be very keen for one when you can do 300 miles at normal motorway speeds of 80-90.

There are some serious question marks about the viability of the car market with electric cars because industry professionals state that after 10 years the batteries die, and effectively the car is scrap. The average age of a car on UK roads is 14 years, which implies a massive reduction in travel and a large section of the population losing their mobility.

There are also problems with the viability of the charging network. In effect, there will never be a viable charging network because electric cars will generally be charged at home, so there will be too little demand to make charging stations economically viable under any plausible scenario.

Questions also remain about the economics of electric cars, which only match up when many of the large costs of conventional car ownership are removed - i.e. tax on fuel, vehicle tax, parking charges, congestion charges. When the government stops subsidising EVs, the costs will mushroom.
 
Given the change is only 10 years away a couple of questions Boris did not cover

Currently the tax man gets 57p for every gallon of both diesel and petrol, how will they get the lost tax off us because they will, hike in toad tax, miles driven?

Where is all the additional electricity going to come from Hinckley Point has been circa 30 years in planning and it’s still not finished

How long will we support diesel and petrol cars already in circulation

HGV not mentioned but what would the cut off be in terms of lighter vans/trucks to go electric
 
Must admit I was stunned when I heard the anonchment, the old date was bad enough but atleast it gave car manufacturers 20 years to develop them.
10 years is just not long enough.
Why the sudden change?? Did science change suddenly or some daft bint refuse to put out if she didn't get some green policy?

The biggest problem is also the type of modern vehicles there turning out, all full off ECUs and computer chips many problems are outwith even well equipped independant garages now.
It's only going to get worse. Who's going to fix these cars?
Are mitsubishi not pulling the plug on Europe in 9 years

Still waiting for an electric car capable off pulling trailers for hundreds of miles on a meat then up a foresty track/off road.


The tree planting numbers/promises are just complete BS and numbers picked out of the air to impress city folk.
Read a we while ago about last season planting targets and all Scot , eng and Wales missed there current targets.
Can't remember the actual figures but the ammount they planted in Wales was pityfull.
Ignoring them conjuring land for planting out of nowhere, they will also need to conjure up trees, ground prep machines and ops, planters and even fencers and fence posts.
Nurseries can hardly keep up at present planting levels, can't get enough bodies to plant them and the ground prep contractors are always crying out for operators althou rates for ground prep and planting are terrible.

Also massive shortage of fence posts the now, 1 main reason is so much fencing grade timbers going to biomass to heat homes or make electricty.
The local biomass power station which when built was only going to burn waste produce, stumps, brash and sawmill waste now takes 100 attics a day of round wood.

Green energy is 1 big scam, the ammount of energy required to run these biomass plants is shocking, would-be better burning desire in 1st place instead of 100wagons .
Same with windmills I'd love to see the carbon foot print for all the ground prep, tree harvesting, road building, quarrying etc. Then u have transporting the turbines there and all local public road improvements which then ridiculously have to be dug up and put back to way they were. Just bonkers
They are a complete white elephant
 
That's fantastic, until the subsidy and freebie tap turns off.
There are no subsidies as such, just tax breaks and interest free loans. The real advantage is that electricity is way cheaper than fuel.
First question. Do you actually get 330 miles range without driving like a granny/undertaker? I'll be very keen for one when you can do 300 miles at normal motorway speeds of 80-90.
No not at 80-90, but it’s still not bad. Just like regular card don’t get anywhere near the stated mileage if you drive fast on the motorway. It’s still pretty good though, and like I say you can recharge at 600mph which means it’s really not taking that long to get filled up again.. 100 miles in 10 minutes.
There are some serious question marks about the viability of the car market with electric cars because industry professionals state that after 10 years the batteries die, and effectively the car is scrap. The average age of a car on UK roads is 14 years, which implies a massive reduction in travel and a large section of the population losing their mobility.
Battery Maintenance technology has improved massively along with the batteries themselves, so although performance (Range) will undoubtedly drop off they’re not going to drop to zero. Maybe a car that would do 300 miles will only do 150, someone will still want that...
There are also problems with the viability of the charging network. In effect, there will never be a viable charging network because electric cars will generally be charged at home, so there will be too little demand to make charging stations economically viable under any plausible scenario.
There’s already a pretty good charging network, so I’m not worried about that at all.
Questions also remain about the economics of electric cars, which only match up when many of the large costs of conventional car ownership are removed - i.e. tax on fuel, vehicle tax, parking charges, congestion charges. When the government stops subsidising EVs, the costs will mushroom.
The economics do add up, if our fuel was tax free then yes diesel would be cheaper, but do you really see them slashing fuel duty any time soon? It only ever goes one way. I wouldn’t have bought one if the economics didn’t add up, I was as sceptical as you 6 months ago. But i did the maths on buying a £30k famIly car vs the nearly £50k Tesla over 5 years and the Tesla won. Even if you look at it over 8 years (which is the Tesla battery warranty) and write the Tesla down to zero the massive saving in fuel cost still makes the Tesla cheaper. For me anyway, factoring in the tax advantages.

The other thing is there’s every likelihood that electric vehicles will be much more reliable than petrol or diesel. If you think about an engine, there’s so much to go wrong, heavy parts change direction thousands of times a minute, piston rings scrape up and down the bores, belts cogs and chains all spinning around, sensors, coolant, oil, DPF, add blue, etc etc.. an electric motor is a spindle running on a fixed axis, there’s nothing changing direction, it’s just a bearing either end. Industrial motors can rack up thousands of hours without any maintenance. That’s the other advantage of electric, servicing costs are way less..
 
I agree that we mustn’t shoot ourselves in the foot by switching to more expensive forms of energy whilst our foreign competitors don’t. However I must add that I bought a Tesla 6 months ago and it’s fantastic, the future is electric for sure. I still have a defender but if I could convert it to electric I would.
the problem with electric cars is the lack of range on many models, for me it needs to be able to do 200+ miles on a charge minimum, many are still under 200. The Tesla 3 that we have does 330 which is ample, it ridiculously cheap to run compared with diesel, about 3-4p per mile for the leccy. The cars themselves are expensive though.
another thing to remember is that the charging network is expanding rapidly, and the fast chargers are really fast, I can recharge mine from 0-80% in about 30 mins if necessary, so after 300 miles driving you stop for a sandwich a **** and a coffee and by the time you’ve done that it’s good to go.
another benefit is that right now the government are falling over themselves to get you to buy one, there’s interest free loans, grants, there’s no benefit in kind tax and half the chargers out there are free to use! Imagine if your local council gave away free diesel! But ours gives away free leccy...

My neighbour has one and it’s a very impressive car. Like you he said his only gripe was the range other than that I think he’s so in love with it he would leave the wife for it haha.
 
That's fantastic, until the subsidy and freebie tap turns off.

First question. Do you actually get 330 miles range without driving like a granny/undertaker? I'll be very keen for one when you can do 300 miles at normal motorway speeds of 80-90.

There are some serious question marks about the viability of the car market with electric cars because industry professionals state that after 10 years the batteries die, and effectively the car is scrap. The average age of a car on UK roads is 14 years, which implies a massive reduction in travel and a large section of the population losing their mobility.

There are also problems with the viability of the charging network. In effect, there will never be a viable charging network because electric cars will generally be charged at home, so there will be too little demand to make charging stations economically viable under any plausible scenario.

Questions also remain about the economics of electric cars, which only match up when many of the large costs of conventional car ownership are removed - i.e. tax on fuel, vehicle tax, parking charges, congestion charges. When the government stops subsidising EVs, the costs will mushroom.
do 300 miles at normal motorway speeds of 80-90? What part of the UK has this legal limit can the polis not get their finger out and do some enforcement "sorry they cannot even enforce the lockdown with their reduced workforce".
But to get back onto the electric subject.
I did do a three month project in Fremont California at Tesla developing their X model falcon doors.
Very interesting it was too, the steel cased battery pack on the S model is bolted up from below onto the aluminium body with 22 bolts. They are expected to be good for the car usage for 8 years, then they will be exchanged for a new pack, the first slightly tired battery pack can then be used as an energy pack to collect energy at your home from from your roof"s solar panels for another 8 years (these to be supplied by solarCity a company being run by some of his relatives, that"s why Musk is so rich).
The concept is good, but really aimed for USA/Sweden/Norway/Germany, where houses are generally larger with good parking on their property.
So how will this translate to work in the UK with it"s predominantly rows of terraced 120 year old housing stock and the broken councils underfunded network that cannot afford to rip up all the streets to fit a charging infrastructure in say the next 15 years, then there is the last question of all for me where will this energy hike be supplied from?
Perhaps adding solar panels by law to every property roof the way indoor hygiene facilities were introduced to most houses in the 1950s-60s?
That could ramp up employment opportunities to compensate for any possible Brexit fallout and make the UK a world front runner again IMO.
Stay safe.
 
What machine is going to prep the ground for planting the trees, where are the people going to come from to plant the trees. I use a pickup and pull a trailer with a quad on it every day mostly on forest roads. At the moment the technology just is there for all circumstances of needed use to be covered by converting to electric
 
Green energy is 1 big scam, the ammount of energy required to run these biomass plants is shocking, would-be better burning desire in 1st place instead of 100wagons .
Same with windmills I'd love to see the carbon foot print for all the ground prep, tree harvesting, road building, quarrying etc. Then u have transporting the turbines there and all local public road improvements which then ridiculously have to be dug up and put back to way they were. Just bonkers
They are a complete white elephant

Not sure I would call it a scam after all the UK has enough Wind and Tidal power to fulfill pretty much all our needs now and in the future. Surely plonking offshore turbines is a better way than digging up ground after all Bozza is going to plant billions of tree's for the carbon seqestration. What is a scam though and needs stamping out is the current tax avoidance schemes for investing in some of these green ventures and your biomass one is right up there as nothing more than a tax dodge.
 
Must admit I was stunned when I heard the anonchment, the old date was bad enough but atleast it gave car manufacturers 20 years to develop them.
10 years is just not long enough.
Why the sudden change?? Did science change suddenly or some daft bint refuse to put out if she didn't get some green policy?

The biggest problem is also the type of modern vehicles there turning out, all full off ECUs and computer chips many problems are outwith even well equipped independant garages now.
It's only going to get worse. Who's going to fix these cars?
Are mitsubishi not pulling the plug on Europe in 9 years

Still waiting for an electric car capable off pulling trailers for hundreds of miles on a meat then up a foresty track/off road.


The tree planting numbers/promises are just complete BS and numbers picked out of the air to impress city folk.
Read a we while ago about last season planting targets and all Scot , eng and Wales missed there current targets.
Can't remember the actual figures but the ammount they planted in Wales was pityfull.
Ignoring them conjuring land for planting out of nowhere, they will also need to conjure up trees, ground prep machines and ops, planters and even fencers and fence posts.
Nurseries can hardly keep up at present planting levels, can't get enough bodies to plant them and the ground prep contractors are always crying out for operators althou rates for ground prep and planting are terrible.

Also massive shortage of fence posts the now, 1 main reason is so much fencing grade timbers going to biomass to heat homes or make electricty.
The local biomass power station which when built was only going to burn waste produce, stumps, brash and sawmill waste now takes 100 attics a day of round wood.

Green energy is 1 big scam, the ammount of energy required to run these biomass plants is shocking, would-be better burning desire in 1st place instead of 100wagons .
Same with windmills I'd love to see the carbon foot print for all the ground prep, tree harvesting, road building, quarrying etc. Then u have transporting the turbines there and all local public road improvements which then ridiculously have to be dug up and put back to way they were. Just bonkers
They are a complete white elephant

+1, nail on head.

Greenwashing is the new political capital for anyone wanting votes from the city sheep.

We will hear about 'suspect' bird of prey deaths on private land and estates (they don't live forever!) yet if it dies on NGO/Quango/Government land then it is above scrutiny. Furthermore, the number dying from of windfarm and train strikes are quietly swept under the table for fear of bad PR!

Someone needs to do a bit of proper investigative journalism into the corruption behind some of these green schemes, but I suspect no mainstream news outlet would dare to print, and it would be a death knell for the journalist's career, no matter how conclusive or well researched.

My urge to leave this barmy island intensifies.
 
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