BASC AGM 2022 and new BASC Film

[Conor O'Gorman]

At this time would it not be more important to divert all available resources to the potential lead ban. The totality of the ban is political and therefore a clear and imminent danger to the whole shooting arena. Just saying

Thanks @Robs

That was an example of an overseas issue that was part of a recent social media update. Also in that update was that we have been briefing MPs and Peers on the Home Office review of firearms licencing fees and GB lead restriction proposals.

We have a team of staff reviewing the GB lead restriction proposals. We are also working with FACE challenging the EU lead restriction proposals - in fact we chair the FACE ammunition working group which has reps from all the FACE member organisations.

There is a lot going on and its a balancing act to give sufficient staff time and resources to everything we want to cover and achieve.

Are you signed up to BASC Live newsletter? That gives a weekly update on the issues and our work.

BASC's 2021 annual review was published online today, consisting of 21 pages packed with information and insights and includes our financial position at the end of 2021. Click the link below to download it.

https://basc.org.uk/download/329547/

 

[Tugmanade]

T. As another aside I went today to a local gunshop to buy .308 copper. They cost £44 for 20 (Winchester 150 g) and the advice I was given was "copper deposits very heavily in the barrel by comparison with lead and needs cleaning regularly" - something I don't normally have to do.
They advised that shooting lead and then copper will change POI for each change - so really its one or the other and regular cleaning. In joking I said - well at least you didn't try to sell me membership of a shooting organisation. I was advised that the guy who helped me thought all were rubbish and pursuing their own agendas but not concerned about shooting ( and stalking particularly ) in general.
Not my opinion someone else's.
Maybe they should all go on TRUSTPILOT - I wouldnt like to see the ratings.
Many BASC members are shoots, DIY or commercial, who feel obliged to renew but don't look too hard at performance but are content to believe they are doing a good thing for shooting (generally).
My view is contrary and I haven't even mentioned the wildfowling 'closed shop'.
However, you pays your money and takes your choice - all I am advocating is a long hard look to see if the membership fee is worth what you get. I was a member of NGA and they are much better than some, SACS has been recommended and I tried to get the shoot to transfer from BASC.
Insurance can, of course. be had anywhere for pennies by comparison.

Funny that (or not so funny) I was in a local gun shop last Friday & almost word for word was their view of the orgs.

 

[T.eddie]

T. As another aside I went today to a local gunshop to buy .308 copper. They cost £44 for 20 (Winchester 150 g) and the advice I was given was "copper deposits very heavily in the barrel by comparison with lead and needs cleaning regularly" - something I don't normally have to do.
They advised that shooting lead and then copper will change POI for each change - so really its one or the other and regular cleaning. In joking I said - well at least you didn't try to sell me membership of a shooting organisation. I was advised that the guy who helped me thought all were rubbish and pursuing their own agendas but not concerned about shooting ( and stalking particularly ) in general.
Not my opinion someone else's.
Maybe they should all go on TRUSTPILOT - I wouldnt like to see the ratings.
Many BASC members are shoots, DIY or commercial, who feel obliged to renew but don't look too hard at performance but are content to believe they are doing a good thing for shooting (generally).
My view is contrary and I haven't even mentioned the wildfowling 'closed shop'.
However, you pays your money and takes your choice - all I am advocating is a long hard look to see if the membership fee is worth what you get. I was a member of NGA and they are much better than some, SACS has been recommended and I tried to get the shoot to transfer from BASC.
Insurance can, of course. be had anywhere for pennies by comparison.

How would you propose to change the leaf free narrative/strategy as let's be honest this is far outside of any shooting orgs ability in my opinion, this is now a "general public" perception change and perception is key
The other day chatting to someone that buys venison, they mentioned about the lead shot label, and having noted that they hadn't seen the label before were concerned. This was bought from a game dealer and I explained the shot process to them and they calmed down but did say they didn't realise it was lead and didn't like the thought of that

 

[kes]

First, lead in the environment is VERY widespread, there's a lot in beer for example, in cosmetics and in children's sweets. A very great number of Asian peoples use products with lead in the as condiments, make -up etc.
So where does the problem lie in the environment since lead also occurs naturally as Galena. Mercury and methyl mercury also appear naturally and are more toxic.

If you shoot and eat what you shoot it should be your choice and since we don't eat clay pigeons then lead for clay shooting and harvested food should remain unaffected (IMO). Tests for lead in run-off from caly ranges could be a control measure based on scientific rather than hysterical 'fact'. Vermin shooting with rifles, not over water or near water, should be equally reasonable with the person shooting being responsible for preparation (rabbits) or disposal (carrion crows, magpies eg.).
Where game is to be sold then public health concerns can be justified but processes exist to remove pellets from game. Food should contain no more lead than for example BEER. to say all food must be lead free is to deny and criminally ignore that more serious concentrations exist and have not been resolved.
Where lead is used as pellets or bullet, any animals culled in this manner should simply be the responsibility of the consumer shooter to resolve - after all no one has banned smoking in the street - we are simply advised it could kill you in various unpleasant ways. No one would envisage lead being of the same risk factor would they?

So in giving up lead without sensible assessment and proposals for retention in certain areas, such as I have mentioned above (by no means exhaustive), our shooting organisations, led by one in particular, sold shooting down the river and now ask us to write to the HSE to see if they might allow some derogation where no lead alternative can exist (subsonics) or where meat harvested is not sold.
It is beyond belief that we are now asked to pull the fat from the fire, thrown there by .............................................................

Is the government cleaning up the live firing ranges all over the country (havens for wildlife) ? Is lead to be banned in military use?
We need to get real about who is supposedly 'leading' us, or bullying others to accept their regrettable 'truth'. Arrogance is no virtue and in the service of others, it has no place.

 

[T.eddie]

First, lead in the environment is VERY widespread, there's a lot in beer for example, in cosmetics and in children's sweets. A very great number of Asian peoples use products with lead in the as condiments, make -up etc.
So where does the problem lie in the environment since lead also occurs naturally as Galena. Mercury and methyl mercury also appear naturally and are more toxic.

If you shoot and eat what you shoot it should be your choice and since we don't eat clay pigeons then lead for clay shooting and harvested food should remain unaffected (IMO). Tests for lead in run-off from caly ranges could be a control measure based on scientific rather than hysterical 'fact'. Vermin shooting with rifles, not over water or near water, should be equally reasonable with the person shooting being responsible for preparation (rabbits) or disposal (carrion crows, magpies eg.).
Where game is to be sold then public health concerns can be justified but processes exist to remove pellets from game. Food should contain no more lead than for example BEER. to say all food must be lead free is to deny and criminally ignore that more serious concentrations exist and have not been resolved.
Where lead is used as pellets or bullet, any animals culled in this manner should simply be the responsibility of the consumer shooter to resolve - after all no one has banned smoking in the street - we are simply advised it could kill you in various unpleasant ways. No one would envisage lead being of the same risk factor would they?

So in giving up lead without sensible assessment and proposals for retention in certain areas, such as I have mentioned above (by no means exhaustive), our shooting organisations, led by one in particular, sold shooting down the river and now ask us to write to the HSE to see if they might allow some derogation where no lead alternative can exist (subsonics) or where meat harvested is not sold.
It is beyond belief that we are now asked to pull the fat from the fire, thrown there by .............................................................

Is the government cleaning up the live firing ranges all over the country (havens for wildlife) ? Is lead to be banned in military use?
We need to get real about who is supposedly 'leading' us, or bullying others to accept their regrettable 'truth'. Arrogance is no virtue and in the service of others, it has no place.

I do agree with some of what you say with a slight addition that we have seen many on here mention that even in the event of a ban they would continue to use the " banned" substance. This could be tongue in cheek but it is most definitely anti-fuel and all it takes is for that to be made public on any anti forum and then we have essentially policed ourselvesinto harsher times in my opinion. So while the orgs haven't left us in the strongest position I'd add that neither have ourselves and the only way out is to have as many respond as possible to voice concern and by framing in ways that highlight the potential inhumane shots or the potential for prolonged suffering or safety concerns etc

 

[User00035]

Going back to the film, the idea that "we are a tribe" doesn't sit well with me at all. Tribalism is by nature an inward-looking mindset conditioned to react reflexively by circling the wagons when threatened. There's enough insularity in society now, with vociferous sub-cultures treating everyone who isn't a member of their particular club as an enemy. Already, too many in the shooting world find it difficult to acknowledge the existence of the majority of humanity who do not wear tweed caps and Harkila waistcoats and drive around in Hiluxes with lights on the roof and cocker spaniels in the back.
The duty we feel to protect the countryside (which is why - or should be why - we shoot) requires us to educate, not alienate.

 

[Basil H]

Kes, (still here then), two quotes :

"My view is contrary" - isn't it always.

"I haven't even mentioned the wildfowling "closed shop"." - well you have and this is arrant nonsense. There are plenty of clubs you could walk into tomorrow, and the current BASC magazine has a club in the middle of the Wash appealing for members. Getting into wildfowling is darn sight easier and cheaper than getting into stalking.

 

[kes]

Kes, (still here then), two quotes :

"My view is contrary" - isn't it always.

"I haven't even mentioned the wildfowling "closed shop"." - well you have and this is arrant nonsense. There are plenty of clubs you could walk into tomorrow, and the current BASC magazine has a club in the middle of the Wash appealing for members. Getting into wildfowling is darn sight easier and cheaper than getting into stalking.

How many wildfowling clubs have memberships of other Orgs than BASC ? - that was my point - which perhaps in haste you missed. "Arrant nonsense" it is not as BASC also attempted to move control membership of and on game shoots to support its income - in my view.
You are sadly driven by dislike - "my view is contrary", reflects my own beliefs in this instance - I do not and never have taken a peverse position where logic dictates the proposed course of action is the correct one.

Does anyone reflect on BASC's words on the use of lead where it was previously banned over wetlands - " if we lose lead you only have yourselves to blame " how prophetic was that, except it was BASC who offered up the loss for no known reason - since they have not, nor has any Org, so far as I know, shown or explained the reason why and how their governing bodies decided on behalf of their paying memberships, it was the 'best' course of action.

A bit like refusing to challenge the 'new' medicals - where are the decisions and where the trail of logic and reports and 'new evidence' available for Members to validate decisions taken by few ?. Which Council members voted and on what basis of recommendations by whom ? Who wrote the reports to Council ? No one has even asked - I know I would have but most of what is done in the name of members is swallowed whole.
Maybe if Members challenged more then decisions would be based rather more on consultation and an exchange of views rather than dictat.

You pays your money and you takes your choice - which is why I don't anymore and make and pass on my own decisions on consultations and to my personal parliamentary representatives etc etc .

 

[Basil H]

The "closed shop" allegation is usually taken to mean that clubs are hard to access and are recruiters for BASC. Neither of these things is true.

In fact, many wildfowling clubs also support other organisations such as CA and (e.g.) regional conservation/amenity groups depending on their members' perceived needs. Some clubs, including the biggest club, Kent WACA, are not affiliated to BASC. The majority of clubs are affiliated to a UK wide pressure group which has nothing to do with BASC.

BASC has its faults, but you buy the right to criticise when you pay your sub. You can then of course ask questions at AGM, present proposals for change, or even stand for Council and engage in governance directly - but we have been there before with you a couple of years ago.

 

[kes]

The "closed shop" allegation is usually taken to mean that clubs are hard to access and are recruiters for BASC. Neither of these things is true.

In fact, many wildfowling clubs also support other organisations such as CA and (e.g.) regional conservation/amenity groups depending on their members' perceived needs. Some clubs, including the biggest club, Kent WACA, are not affiliated to BASC. The majority of clubs are affiliated to a UK wide pressure group which has nothing to do with BASC.

BASC has its faults, but you buy the right to criticise when you pay your sub. You can then of course ask questions at AGM, present proposals for change, or even stand for Council and engage in governance directly - but we have been there before with you a couple of years ago.

2 points - since I was considering standing - what has changed ? has anyone asked for the reasoning behind the proposed lead ban - all those members who 'bought' the right to do so ?

These reports and recommendations should be available for members to challenge before they go to Council - that is what is required in local government - yet BASC so far as I recall, have never shown where the understanding and scientific basis for their decisions has come from - no reports ?

Second, representation of members by all Orgs is said to be 'democratic' it isnt. Some small excuse for those Orgs with few staff, mostly volunteers who, from my experience will explain to concerned Members rather than produce costly reports.
Who chooses the agenda ? would you as a member have chosen to ban lead ? Could you reasonably have expected that by prior consultation or a knowledge of key strategic aims and supporting documentation - of course you wouldnt - the ammo manufacturers didnt even know about it. Then BASC (in this case) lied about them being consulted. Do you expect that from an organisation there to supportt all aspects of shooting - did you ask for information or just sit back and accept it ?
BASC should not 'style' itself as the Voice of Shooting because it makes its decisions directs its resources based upon closed decisions made by a few with no democratic input or even consultation - yet members swallow it, perhaps in the hope of becoming members, being elected and going to Europe as part of FACE ?
If resources are the key to democratisation then BASC follows the model of other charities by not asking membersjust taking their money.
I would argue now, more than ever, we need a wide concensus on what should be done to help shooting not BASC et al doing their own thi8ng and asking supporters to write to the HSE.
Just my view - I could be wrong about all this but I would appreciate the evidence and then I might change my mind - now where have I heard that before

 

[Basil H]

Kes, I have tried to deal in facts and I am not here to answer your questions. As a member, I can contact staff or Council members as appropriate when I want answers about how the organisation functions. No doubt NGO, CA, SGA etc. can do much the same. I would refer you to the BASC website and to the weekly e-mail for a start. Conor might help you although members do not pay him to do so.

We have three "Pb" roblems here : lead poisoning in waterfowl - that ship sailed with the AEWA.
Lead residue in game consumed by humans and by predators/scavengers. Tricky but doable.
Lead distributed in the environment. God knows how we solve this one but it won't be done by shouting about whose fault it is. We need some good science and mitigation and also some better politicking for this battle, and I would hope that the major organisations are getting together. If ever we needed those "fighting funds" it is now.

The plastic problems looks a doddle by comparison

 

[kes]

Most of what you say I agree with but sentence 1 indicates you could at least ask how and why a voluntary lead ban was the determined course of action for the organisation - have you ever wanted to know? Or perhaps too worried about what the answer might be to ask ? Would you follow a course of action without detailed justification and confirmation there was no other course and that everyone in the inductry was 'on-board' ?
Same applies to the refusal to fight against the new medical proposals and why BASC et al didnt challenge via JR, the actions of the first Police Force to demand these new arrangements. I asked and the reply was - legal advice was it would do no good. I have never seen that advice and it was never published - doesn't it concern you that there might have been an alternative course to be pursued - most people, where for example medical issues are concerned, can and do ask for a second opinion or in this case the logic in the first instance. Information allows one to judge.
If you believe, as I do, that past performance is an indicator of future performance unless change is carried out - do you not worry about - no evidence no change, the medicals issue, Ali etc. Have you ever asked a question of Council members - even though you suggest you could ?
Bearing in mind that DEFRA refused to accept the LAG's (Swifts ) recommendation, did you not ask why the change from "no evidence - no change" to an outright and individual adoption of a voluntary lead ban ?
If you did not ask then I suggest others who do, even though they are not members are just simply voicing acute and valid concerns that shooting is being stupifyingly obedient to a single and demonstrably flawed attitude ?

Better we all follow BASC as lead (not lead) into the next mistake ? I want to leave something behind for the next shooting generation - you can see from other's comments most do NOT agree BASC has played a 'good game' on our behalf.
More young adults shooting is a laudable and justifiable aim but no good if they cant, as there is no shooting left ?
Whatever, you continue with the view you hold and there will be no change for the better but that is very much your choice and for you to make up your own mind as 'a member'.
I cannot apologise if my view differs from yours, but I would not expect the rabid criticism from some that I should not make it.

 

[B&W FOX]

BASC's 143 paid staff help members on the phone, by email and face to face at shows and events

I think that is very top heavy head count for an organisation.

You employ more members of staff than Suzuki GB and we have 4 main divisions, cars, motorcycles, marine and ATV's.
We cover more events, shows, press launches and film work in a year than you do in 5.
Along with the warehouse and distribution to every UK and Irish dealer for products, accessories and spare parts on a daily bases.
BASC needs to start giving value for money and not just jobs and perks for the boy's as them days have well and truly gone, along with alot of your long standing members.

Thanks for sending us down the river without a paddle with compulsory medicals with the dream of a ten year license. Did you view that one in the bottom of your gin glass.?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think that is very top heavy head count for an organisation.

You employ more members of staff than Suzuki GB and we have 4 main divisions, cars, motorcycles, marine and ATV's.
We cover more events, shows, press launches and film work in a year than you do in 5.
Along with the warehouse and distribution to every UK and Irish dealer for products, accessories and spare parts on a daily bases.
BASC needs to start giving value for money and not just jobs and perks for the boy's as them days have well and truly gone, along with alot of your long standing members.

Thanks for sending us down the river without a paddle with compulsory medicals with the dream of a ten year license. Did you view that one in the bottom of your gin glass.?

@B&W FOX

Did you read BASC's 2021 annual review? If not here is the link:

https://basc.org.uk/download/329547/

As regards firearms licensing you may be interested in listening to one of our recent podcasts - Episode 17

Podcast

Each episode includes the latest news and views relating to shooting with expert analysis of shooting-related affairs and interviews.

basc.org.uk

 

[B&W FOX]

@B&W FOX

Did you read BASC's 2021 annual review? If not here is the link:

https://basc.org.uk/download/329547/

As regards firearms licensing you may be interested in listening to one of our recent podcasts - Episode 17

Podcast

Each episode includes the latest news and views relating to shooting with expert analysis of shooting-related affairs and interviews.

basc.org.uk

Just read the annual review, first time viewing as I cancelled my membership back in 2019.

Appraisal by each operating department is standard practice for any company at the end of each trading year.

I look forward to the outcome of FELWG with regards licence fee's which are certain to increase with a deterioration of service.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Just read the annual review, first time viewing as I cancelled my membership back in 2019.

Appraisal by each operating department is standard practice for any company at the end of each trading year.

I look forward to the outcome of FELWG with regards licence fee's which are certain to increase with a deterioration of service.

Thanks @B&W FOX did you get a chance to listen to the podcast that covered medical involvement in firearms licensing?

As regards firearms licencing fees in England, Wales and Scotland a Home Office review is taking place and BASC has made its position clear - we will not accept “rewarding failure”.

BASC outlines key demands in licensing fees review

BASC will not accept “rewarding failure” in the upcoming review of firearms licensing fees in England, Scotland and Wales.

basc.org.uk

The last fees review was in 2014 and we fought successfully for proportionate rises from those previously set in 2001.

BASC welcomes new firearms fees - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation

The UK's largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), has welcomed a firearms licensing fees order which has today been laid before Parliament. The order contains Government proposals to increase the fee for the grant of a shotgun certificate from...

basc.org.uk

Do you think the outcome of the previous fees review was proportionate?

 

[B&W FOX]

Do you think the outcome of the previous fees review was proportionate?

I think the current fee for grants, renewal and variations are fair, the only thorn is the medical fee which can vary depending on your GP and his views or lack of

If the fee was the same as for passport's but included the medical fee it would help to level the playing field.

 

[terrier1]

As regards firearms licencing fees in England, Wales and Scotland a Home Office review is taking place and BASC has made its position clear - we will not accept “rewarding failure”.

When have the police or the home office tuck any notice of what BASC have had to say.
TEN YEAR LICENSES. NO VOICE.

 

[Robs]

Application type Previous Fee New Fee

Approved shooting club first time £84 £444
Approved shooting club renewal £84 £372
Section 5 prohibited weapons dealer first time No fee £7962
Section 5 prohibited weapons dealer renewal No fee £7472
Section 5 prohibited weapons carrier first time No fee £569
Section 5 prohibited weapons carrier renewal No fee £540

Just a name change at £206. The HO are not listening to any org re fees, never have never will. The HO discounted all responses in the consultation in 2019. The only win was the recognition that expanding ammunition was taken off section 5, and that was because it was a balls up by the HO in the first place. We constanlly "reward failure" both of the authorities and our representative orgs. We now have the ad-hoc made up on the back of a fag packet medical reporting.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

When have the police or the home office tuck any notice of what BASC have had to say.
TEN YEAR LICENSES. NO VOICE.

The outcome of the last fees review is here:

BASC welcomes new firearms fees - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation

The UK's largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), has welcomed a firearms licensing fees order which has today been laid before Parliament. The order contains Government proposals to increase the fee for the grant of a shotgun certificate from...

basc.org.uk