BASC opposes new proposals for medical fees

I agree with the flat rate charge and nothing else in your post. The bit about 'proper assessment of mental health' is a travesty -in my humble opinion. Hamilton was a paedophile and obviously a sado- masochist, from the treatment of boys in his care. He received a licence because the police allowed it, despite a recommendation from a member of the authorising force that he was 'unsuitable'. Her decision, the only police person to see him, was overruled.
Bird was hardly normal and was showing noticeable signs of paranoia - nothing done to take his guns.
Raul Moat (Durham) was given his guns back in contravention of standard police recommendation - by the police.
Ryan was 'schizophrenic and psychotic' according to a doctor at Broadmoor, AFTER the shootings for which there is no adequate explanation still. He would not have been diagnosed.
So, medical evidence affects less than 1 % of renewals/grant and further medical investigation is unlikely to affect the possibilty of another event. Currently, in England a medical is not paid for by the applicant - changing the system of payment wont make the slightest difference except to change the person who pays.
The police need better training although ost of the older FLO's know what to look for but are failed by the system at HQ.
I would do anything beneficial to stop another massacre in this country - IF THERE WAS ANYTHING THAT COULD BE DONE. This proposed change is not it.
You either take away our freedom to shoot at all, not far off in my opinion, or you constantly test and update your assessment systems and make individuals who issue certificates responsible. Medicals haven't found a single mass murderer authorised to hold firearms.
Just my opinion which I have rather carefully researched.

So

agreed, was it also in the ryan incident that his behaviour was deemed "unacceptable" by the range officer at his local club who informed the police on more than one occasion of his concerns and was ignored,, with tragic consequences as it later turned out.
so to summarise, even when informed they failed to act, and after the whole sorry affair then thought it a good idea to further persecute law abiding gun owners. stable door ,bolted,and horse comes to mind.
 
I agree with the flat rate charge and nothing else in your post. The bit about 'proper assessment of mental health' is a travesty -in my humble opinion. Hamilton was a paedophile and obviously a sado- masochist, from the treatment of boys in his care. He received a licence because the police allowed it, despite a recommendation from a member of the authorising force that he was 'unsuitable'. Her decision, the only police person to see him, was overruled.
Bird was hardly normal and was showing noticeable signs of paranoia - nothing done to take his guns.
Raul Moat (Durham) was given his guns back in contravention of standard police recommendation - by the police.
Ryan was 'schizophrenic and psychotic' according to a doctor at Broadmoor, AFTER the shootings for which there is no adequate explanation still. He would not have been diagnosed.
So, medical evidence affects less than 1 % of renewals/grant and further medical investigation is unlikely to affect the possibilty of another event. Currently, in England a medical is not paid for by the applicant - changing the system of payment wont make the slightest difference except to change the person who pays.
The police need better training although ost of the older FLO's know what to look for but are failed by the system at HQ.
I would do anything beneficial to stop another massacre in this country - IF THERE WAS ANYTHING THAT COULD BE DONE. This proposed change is not it.
You either take away our freedom to shoot at all, not far off in my opinion, or you constantly test and update your assessment systems and make individuals who issue certificates responsible. Medicals haven't found a single mass murderer authorised to hold firearms.
Just my opinion which I have rather carefully researched.

Good post kes. :thumb:
 
I agree with the flat rate charge and nothing else in your post. The bit about 'proper assessment of mental health' is a travesty -in my humble opinion. Hamilton was a paedophile and obviously a sado- masochist, from the treatment of boys in his care. He received a licence because the police allowed it, despite a recommendation from a member of the authorising force that he was 'unsuitable'. Her decision, the only police person to see him, was overruled.
Bird was hardly normal and was showing noticeable signs of paranoia - nothing done to take his guns.
Raul Moat (Durham) was given his guns back in contravention of standard police recommendation - by the police.
Ryan was 'schizophrenic and psychotic' according to a doctor at Broadmoor, AFTER the shootings for which there is no adequate explanation still. He would not have been diagnosed.
So, medical evidence affects less than 1 % of renewals/grant and further medical investigation is unlikely to affect the possibilty of another event. Currently, in England a medical is not paid for by the applicant - changing the system of payment wont make the slightest difference except to change the person who pays.
The police need better training although ost of the older FLO's know what to look for but are failed by the system at HQ.
I would do anything beneficial to stop another massacre in this country - IF THERE WAS ANYTHING THAT COULD BE DONE. This proposed change is not it.
You either take away our freedom to shoot at all, not far off in my opinion, or you constantly test and update your assessment systems and make individuals who issue certificates responsible. Medicals haven't found a single mass murderer authorised to hold firearms.
Just my opinion which I have rather carefully researched.

So

I completely understand that someone who has depression or anxiety can be perfectly capable of being a safe and responsible firearms owner. I am not trying to stigmatise anyone here. It has to be said though that anyone who wants to go out and kill a load of people like Hamilton et al is mentally ill. And it is no coincidence that almost all of the mass shootings in America have been committed by individuals who were either on psychiatric medication or withdrawing from the same.

I also completely understand that that even the best psychiatric evaluation can not pick up everything and people will slip through the net. But when you compare our system with the American system you don’t need to be a genius to realise that we are doing something right.

I dont share the view view that the powers that be are trying to get rid of all private gun ownership, we didn’t even get a knee jerk reaction after the Cumbria shootings as we did after Ryan and Hamilton...

The system needs to be clear, fair and effective for every postcode, clearly it is not like that at the moment. I actually think that the best part of our system is not the medical checks but the fact that we need to provide references from 2 people who know us well and who are not criminals themselves. So often in the aftermath of shooting incidents we hear that the perpetrator was ‘a loaner’ ‘a bit weird’ etc etc.. the need for referees helps to keep these perple away from firearms..
 
I completely understand that someone who has depression or anxiety can be perfectly capable of being a safe and responsible firearms owner. I am not trying to stigmatise anyone here. It has to be said though that anyone who wants to go out and kill a load of people like Hamilton et al is mentally ill. And it is no coincidence that almost all of the mass shootings in America have been committed by individuals who were either on psychiatric medication or withdrawing from the same.

I also completely understand that that even the best psychiatric evaluation can not pick up everything and people will slip through the net. But when you compare our system with the American system you don’t need to be a genius to realise that we are doing something right.

I dont share the view view that the powers that be are trying to get rid of all private gun ownership, we didn’t even get a knee jerk reaction after the Cumbria shootings as we did after Ryan and Hamilton...

The system needs to be clear, fair and effective for every postcode, clearly it is not like that at the moment. I actually think that the best part of our system is not the medical checks but the fact that we need to provide references from 2 people who know us well and who are not criminals themselves. So often in the aftermath of shooting incidents we hear that the perpetrator was ‘a loaner’ ‘a bit weird’ etc etc.. the need for referees helps to keep these perple away from firearms..

Our system is robust as it is and better than any other - so why change it when the change will do nothing to improve it. - That is my sole point and the fact that asking someone else to pay for an opinion which, so far, has prevented not a single 'legal owner' shooting is neither 'intelligence led' or in any way 'justified'. So why is the HO complicit in this unjustified and disgusting transfer of cost ?
2 things maybe - 1. Gun ownership is not to be tolerated - least explicable, I agree, but possible;
2. The government don't want to upset doctors because the BMA is strong and directly associated with the 'politically problematic' NHS.
We are therefore left out to dry with organisations like BASC to fight our corner. Is there any wonder I catechise BASC ? For the task we face they are a poor ally and an even poorer support - unless they grab this and spend some money and intellectual rather than marketing action; (providing the wildfowler agree, naturally.

I despair, I really do , they need a large boot up their collective derriers (I trust most of the hardworking staff there will forgive me, I am sure they know who they are.)
 
Well that didn't take them long, Lincolnshire Police have just stated NO renewals or new FAC without a medical certificate. Now BASC get your teeth into that and make like a pitbull on steroids.
 
Sounds like there could be a moratorium with regards shooters forwarding information to their local police force.
 
Welcome to our world guys .....


Been like this for months up north .... no help from out organisations etc


I said this would happen down south ..... no interest or help from our brothers down south


Air gun licensing the same


Will happen to you guys


[emoji22]
Paul
 
I think the police are making a mistake in alienating the most law-abiding sector of the population. Without reliable informants, they won't get anywhere.
 
Surely they are not following current HO guidelines and can be challenged over this by an applicant!


They are HO Guidelines - not firearms law
The law says that the chief constable must be "satisfied" that the applicant is a suitable person to possess a firearm or shotgun.
The law does not define the level of satisfaction required or how that level is to be achieved.
In Scotland the police have decided unilaterally that unless they get a response to the GP letter, they cannot be "satisfied" and will not issue a certificate.
Unless there is a successful legal appeal by someone who has been refused a certificate purely on the grounds of the police not getting a response to the initial GP letter then individual police forces in England and Wales are free to do the same as is happening in Scotland.

Cheers

Bruce
 
They are HO Guidelines - not firearms law
The law says that the chief constable must be "satisfied" that the applicant is a suitable person to possess a firearm or shotgun.
The law does not define the level of satisfaction required or how that level is to be achieved.
In Scotland the police have decided unilaterally that unless they get a response to the GP letter, they cannot be "satisfied" and will not issue a certificate.
Unless there is a successful legal appeal by someone who has been refused a certificate purely on the grounds of the police not getting a response to the initial GP letter then individual police forces in England and Wales are free to do the same as is happening in Scotland.

Cheers

Bruce

yep, then they will probably start tightening the "good reasons to acquire and possess" but only after everyone has coughed up for the doctors fees. :roll:
 
I sent my conerns to my MP (David Davies) Conservative and received this reply

Thank you for contacting me about firearms licensing.
I can assure you that I am not opposed to the possession of firearms generally, and I certainly recognise that the overwhelming majority of firearms are used responsibly. Controls must be proportionate and administered fairly. Indeed, I am glad that the Government has a track-record of avoiding knee-jerk reactions when it comes to gun control. Here in our area, country pursuits are something I think it is important to defend as a part of our community life.

As you will be aware, the working group was established to improve the arrangements between GPs and the police in relation to information sharing about the medical suitability of firearm certificate holders, with a view to strengthening public safety. Members of the working group are wide ranging, and include the Home Office, police representatives, BMA, RCGP, GMC, Department of Health, BASC, BSSC, Countryside Alliance, National Gamekeepers Organisation and Information Commissioners, among others.

When police write to each GP to check on an applicant's medical suitability to hold a firearm or shotgun licence they ask the GP to place a firearms marker on the patient's record so that the GP can advise police if a person begins to suffer from a relevant medical condition during the (five year) life of the certificate. If the police do not receive a response from a GP within 21 days of their request for information about an applicant's health, they can progress with the application. Applications are considered on a case by case basis, taking into consideration all available information.

Revised guidance was developed as a result of the group's work. The Government has been clear that the arrangements would be kept under review, and this includes looking at how the arrangements are working in particular areas and speaking with interested parties.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.



Worryingly unaware and not informed or playing a straight bat, or, much more likely an 'interns' response.


I replied saying I knew all that but is he aware, as I mentioned, that proposals have been put forward to charge for the first 'tick-box' response at an variable cost to individuals from £20 to £200.
Iknow they cant be up to speed on everything but heavens.
 
Last edited:
The charging was always going to happen and anyone with their eyes open can surely see that. It is not for the NHS to pay that bill, and the change in law should necesessarily have forseen that extra administration costs were incumbent on the applicant. They cannot be directly levied by the police as it is not they who incur the costs, but the NHS Trusts, therefore the applicaiton is effectively in two parts now with both parts requiring payment prior to an application being processed. People (including the H/O) are guessing at the costs. GPs will set the costs and with heads of practice earning £130K plus annually, don't expect a cheap meal ticket on this one unless the GMC have agreed a cap....which as yet there's no evidence of.

The financial aspect is only one of two major concerns for us. The second is far more insidious. GPs will not be willing, and may argue that they're not able to comment on some more specialised aspects of health, including the very wide spectrum of mental health and related aspects. So far, the police seem to paint all such health issues with the same broad black brush and are free to do so without evidence presented to counter an individual's suitability. The truth is that many related illnesses may have no bearing on an individual's suitability but will the police see it that way? There may be other specialist areas where GPs feel unable to comment without qualifying their reports. In all such cases, chief constables will argue that a person's suitability has not, by definition, been fully assessed and either refuse to grant or the person involved will have to stump up more money for further specialist assessment all at their onwn cost not to mention the time it will take.

In effect gentlemen (and ladies), it has become a case of the applicant now has to effectively prove their suitability at their own cost but at the whim of the licencing department.

The whole thing is a complete shambles, when all that surely was needed was a marker placed on records where any GP suspecting that (and here all that is needed is suspicion) an individual's suitability may be compromised, has a duty to (rightly) inform the licensing department. What is wrong with just leaving things at that? Honestly, faceless bureaucrats with nothing better to do than invent tick boxes and flow charts have won this battle without using a shred of common sense. It all seems rather to convenient and deliberate, another pressure to dissuade the public from firearms ownership.
 
The charging was always going to happen and anyone with their eyes open can surely see that.
Well, maybe. But it wasn't what the BMA originally agreed to. Of course, that's just the medical professionals' trade union - so they don't have to follow what the BMA says. Nor is it a given that anyone other than the Police should pay. After all, it is they who feel they need the 'reports' for the public good - not for the good of the applicant.

It is not for the NHS to pay that bill,
Indeed
and the change in law should necesessarily have forseen that extra administration costs were incumbent on the applicant.
First, the law is that the applicant pays the statutory fee for grant/renewal. That's it.
Second, that law has not AFAIK changed.
They cannot be directly levied by the police as it is not they who incur the costs, but the NHS Trusts, therefore the applicaiton is effectively in two parts now with both parts requiring payment prior to an application being processed.
GPs are not NHS Trusts, but private companies. The application is not in two parts - it is made to the FLD, and the if the FLD wants info from the GP, they're entitled to ask for it becuase we have to give permission for them to do so. If the GP wants money for providing it, the FLD should be resourced to be able to pay the GP. It's very simple, really.
People (including the H/O) are guessing at the costs. GPs will set the costs and with heads of practice earning £130K plus annually, don't expect a cheap meal ticket on this one unless the GMC have agreed a cap....which as yet there's no evidence of.
Again - we should avoid making the same presumptions as the HO and police! Who says it is reasonable for applicants to shoulder these unspecifed costs? Who even says the whole concept is propotionate or reasonable?

The whole thing is a complete shambles, when all that surely was needed was a marker placed on records where any GP suspecting that (and here all that is needed is suspicion) an individual's suitability may be compromised, has a duty to (rightly) inform the licensing department. What is wrong with just leaving things at that? Honestly, faceless bureaucrats with nothing better to do than invent tick boxes and flow charts have won this battle without using a shred of common sense. It all seems rather to convenient and deliberate, another pressure to dissuade the public from firearms ownership.
Absolutely!
However, the suggestion that the Police and HO have won a battle suggests that there's been some kind of resistance from our organisations - which seems regrettably not yet to have been the case.

The idea that our organisations should ever 'trust' the police or HO seems beyond absurd when you look at the history of firearms control in this country. It isn't that the HO and/or Police have nothing better to do - they both, as they've shown time and time again, regard any obstacle in the way of lawful firearms users as a good thing in its own right.
 
The idea that our organisations should ever 'trust' the police or HO seems beyond absurd when you look at the history of firearms control in this country. It isn't that the HO and/or Police have nothing better to do - they both, as they've shown time and time again, regard any obstacle in the way of lawful firearms users as a good thing in its own right.

I totally agree with this, and more worringly is how many of them are now employed by our associations: BASC SAC, NGO etc. Is it not a case of Ex jobs talking to the current ones in jobs and taking the easy route for them both, whatever happened to the Feerless defending the Defenceless!
 
whatever happened to the Fearless defending the Defenceless!

I think this phrase, though excellent juxtaposes the truth. We are the Fearless our organisations are the defenseless - apparently despite the subs. The last person to cause mayhem in BASC was a policeman threatening to kill someone.
 
Though a member of BASC for many years I have not remained au fait with their performance on behalf of members. My bad.

But I am now 100% clear that how they navigate the matter of the [unwanted and of moot divining capability] medical debacle will form a good yardstick of their worth to subscribers. It seems a fair statement that BASC pretty much rolled over when the idea of a medical certificate was first floated [co-authors?]. Yet a review of UK history [in this thread or other] demonstrates that medical detection of past firearms offenders by the current proposals would have been unlikely. Indeed, the hallmark in almost all [licensed] gun crime is inept policing.

I concede that the notion of a FAC medical has now taken hold in govt circles. The benefit it accrues is notional, but we are unlikely to make it go away now it has been given air. So...for BASC to earn their subs going forward, any process around the implimentation of a medical certificate must include that it is implimented in a binding and unambiguous way: fixed fee structure, associated with longer term licence, no post code lottery with appropriate overrides where concientious objector GPs don't play ball.

If BASC fail at this hurdle, perhaps it is time for a new shooter representative body to be formed. If that happens, it needs to be made up of advocates that declare our position without waver [or nod to previous office] and with robust argument. [I have listened to BASC vlog announcements , read the webpage pdfs. The pitch is deferential, anodyne, conciliatory. Where the stentorious affirmation of shooting benefits, the rightful derision of the notion of the medical certification merit whilst that was still possible?]
 
Back
Top