BASC response to Firearms Licensing Guidance Consultation

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You have to KNOW you are doing something wrong to put it right. BASC doesnt accept it has done anything wrong.

Mr Graffius' letter to Mr Hurd, which David posted earlier and which I have now managed to open, still seems quite sanguine about these extra-statutory fees.

It alludes to Mr Graffius' ongoing belief in 'common aims' between BASC and HO - a concept which I hope will be examined by BASC at a high level before any further negotiations occur.

It ongoingly supports the bizarre idea that the HO Guide should become even more enforcible - a concept superficially attractive until we note that the Guide is written by the Home Office and the Police, without any approval from Parliament. Essentially it appears to mean that the whatever finds its way into that Guide will have the authority of statute. That does not sound to me particularly desirable.

It seems to suggest that the HO would benefit from BASC's help 'to avoid errors'. I suppose it might appear to BASC that the HO are prone to making errors in this area - but given their agenda with respect to firearms licensing it is hard to see how any of this so far could have turned out better for the HO. It has cost the public nothing, the FLDs have another means to incovenience shooters, and certificate numbers are likely to drop as cost rise unpredictably. I can almost hear a 'Yes, Minister' script in my head.

On the up-side, Mr Graffius point out that firearms certification is for the public good, so the public should expect to pay - so perhaps the important princple to which i keep alluding might be dragged back off the table.
 
But the whole point about the judicial review is that it WASN'T tried. So we'll never know if that legal advice was or wasn't correct. No doubt there would have been counsel who would have told Wild Justice that a judicial review of the General Licence was a gamble. And some that told Gina Miller the same about Brexit. She'd fail.

Yet NE surrendered on the mere threat of it. And Gina Miller won her court case. Now we will NEVER ever know if the threat of a judicial review would have halted this march to medical certification BECAUSE IT WASN'T EVER TRIED! Effectively you've fled and surrendered the battlefield without even standing and firing a shot in defence.

AND EVEN IF A "FORLORN HOPE" BASC DIDN'T THEN EVEN FLOAT TO ITS MEMBERS AND TO THE WIDER SHOOTING COMMUNITY THE IDEA OF CROWD FUNDING SUCH A JUDICIAL REVIEW.

Very well said :thumb:. Reading the purpose of a judicial review, it seems perfect for the medical debacle. A postcode lottery, unfair charges and/or refusal to participate etc, rendering it impossible for law abiding people to comply with just seems a low hanging ripe fruit for easy picking.
Sadly the white flag has seemed to be the first option. :cuckoo:. That applies to all the organisations including NRA, NSRA...…. All have been pathetic to date.
 
That applies to all the organisations including NRA, NSRA...…. All have been pathetic to date.

The overriding one being the BSSC which, being the umbrella body that brings together all the organisations to achieve a consensus on political and legislative matters, hasn’t exactly led the way on behalf of shooters of all disciplines.

Pathetic doesn’t even get near to describing them all.
 
Some of you are worried I think that some doctors won't coperate with form filling stuff and thinking you might lose your guns
Look on the bright side I think most doctors will do it as it's money in Thier pocket I don't mind paying at all as I value my shooting very much
As long as it's not extortionate amounts
 
Dalua's post above is crucial. You have to KNOW you are doing something wrong to put it right. BASC doesnt accept it has done anything wrong.

Whilst I agree entirely with your comment above, BASC has not been alone in failing to acknowledge poor performance and achieving absolutely nothing to effectively resolve the medical debacle for its members.

We have to face the sad fact that no shooting organisation has stepped up to the mark and actually achieved anything worthwhile …….yet.

Dismal failure applies to the whole depressing lot on this particular issue !
 
As long as it's not extortionate amounts

Well, quite. Is it not therefore better to avoid the problem by limiting the cost of certificate applications/renewals to the fees laid down by Parliament, as the Act intends?

I appreciate that a lot of folk won't mind paying. Howver there are plenty of wealthy people about, and one man's reasonable is another's unaffordable.

The whole concept of FLDs being able to request any reports at all at the applicant's expense is iniquitous, disctiminatory and contrary to the spirit of the Firearms Act.

By going along with this unjust measure, we (and our organisations) are furthering the agenda of the Police and the Home Office.
 
Whilst I agree entirely with your comment above, BASC has not been alone in failing to acknowledge poor performance and achieving absolutely nothing to effectively resolve the medical debacle for its members.

We have to face the sad fact that no shooting organisation has stepped up to the mark and actually achieved anything worthwhile …….yet.

Dismal failure applies to the whole depressing lot on this particular issue !
Ngo won the buzzard case .....
I agree that more should be done by all bit please remember basc claim to be the voice of shooting ....
 
Ngo won the buzzard case .....
I agree that more should be done by all bit please remember basc claim to be the voice of shooting ....
Indeed so JIm and all credit due to them for having the courage to do so. I am not aware of any achievement on the medical issue though. We live in hopes.
 
This is already in place or it has been with TVP
All forces are not satisfied with this procedure as it's not reducing the number of certificate's so they have dreamed up this new crap
IT IS ALL ABOUT REDUCING CERTIFICATES
Nail on head mate, blame seems to be put firmly at the feet of the GPs when its the police that are at fault for not following the HO guidence, some Cheif Constables saw the report by the her Majestys Inspectorate of Constabularies Scotland on the resounding success of the Scottish Firearms licensing system and said "Il have a piece of that" decided to ignore HO guidence and and take it upon themselves only to be satisfied as to an applicants suitability if the have a full medical report, in other words "No report No certificate" the cost of this report is of no relevence in this process at the moment, however is this is to become the norm then an equal and reasonable fee must be levied across the board.

Ian.
 
Some of you are worried I think that some doctors won't coperate with form filling stuff and thinking you might lose your guns
Look on the bright side I think most doctors will do it as it's money in Thier pocket I don't mind paying at all as I value my shooting very much
As long as it's not extortionate amounts
When does an amount become "Extortionate"?
 
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When does an amount become "Extortionate"?
When you cant afford it, either physically or philosophically. I will never be able to afford a fee which reduces membership of shooting or assumes we are 'guilty until proven innocent', or refuses to accept that a system set up for public safety has achieved that, apart from the occasions when the systems controllers have failed to operate it correctly and truly hideous murder has ensued.
I wont bore others with further details. Note - no mention of a certain organisation.
 
If this crap was brought out in France imagine the outcome we are so ****ed up in this country it's beyond repair
I will not surrender my guns to nobody unless of very good reason
 
Following someone posting a link to some statistics earlier, I have done a little digging to flesh out further the police stats in regard to rifles only, given this forum's interest.
I attach two pdfs (Rifle stats) and (weapon type - which shows the full array of weapons captured in the total stats) which hopefully can be opened, but the highlights relating to rifles are as follows:

In the year to 31/03/2018 there were 92 incidents involving rifles (legally held and otherwise - the reports do not differentiate)
=> 57 of these incidents DID NOT involve the rifle being fired (26 relate to "possession" offences

Of those fired,
=> 14 caused NO injury or property damage
=> 9 caused property damage only
=> 2 resulted in fatalities
=> 10 resulted in injuries

Compare these stats with Table 3 in the rifle stats pdf which relates to knife crime. I think perhaps the response to the proposed Guidelines should be that on a risk-based approach, the Guidance should dispense with the requirement for any GP opinion for FAC holders!!
 

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Dalua,

Where is your evidence that the HO Guidance is written (in part) by the police, because my sources tell me that they have hitherto had very little input into this document. Perhaps Uncle Norm with his previous experience in licensing management could tell us if his force was ever consulted about this document?

F
 
Dalua,

Where is your evidence that the HO Guidance is written (in part) by the police, because my sources tell me that they have hitherto had very little input into this document. Perhaps Uncle Norm with his previous experience in licensing management could tell us if his force was ever consulted about this document?

F

I have no evidence at all. It's all inference on my part, based on the likely close working relationship and large measure of common purpose between the two bodies in this field.
'Written by' was certainly a poor choice of words in my part. I didn't mean to imply that Uncle Norm and his colleagues were each given a chapter to write as homework, which was then marked and corrected by Mr Hurd before being included in the Guide.

However, if your sources tell you that the Police have had very little input, that seems to show that they have had input, even if only very little. Which I guess is what I was driving at.

Not that it matters much whether it's the Police or the HO. If the Guide is given the authority of Statute, to have it written other than under the direct control of parliament would be an absurd short-circuiting of our system of government, as well as being (yet another) precedent inimical to the shooting public.
 
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