BASC response to Firearms Licensing Guidance Consultation

TVP firearms department have just had a negative review on BBC South Today News from a mother who's young son has been waiting over 6 months for his first shotgun certificate.
The police's response was "there are always seasonal delays plus all the additional checks they need to make"
Fair play to the mother to bring them to task in the media.
She could get a job with THAT organisation:p:p !!!!
 
My granddaughter's got got her renewal soon for her shotgun she is 14 years old mmm do you suffer from depression bifola alcohol abuse manic depression
What a bunch of wasters
 
Thanks again to all for the feedback on the consultation both in this thread and by PM, email and telephone conversations. BASC's response has been finalised by the firearms team and should be ready to submit and be published on BASC website on Monday. I will start a new thread in this forum when it is published with a summary of key points and I hope that this will encourage anyone in this forum who has yet to respond to the consultation to do so. The consultation closes on 17 Sept.
 
My granddaughter's got got her renewal soon for her shotgun she is 14 years old mmm do you suffer from depression bifola alcohol abuse manic depression
What a bunch of wasters

With great respect sir,, think on this,, how would you feel if those questions weren't asked and some young crazy youth not as level headed as your grand daughter, went postal and hurt her with a firearm, my guess is you would be wondering and outraged as to why the police had lapsed in their duty to protect her. am I correct?
 
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Medical intervention within the firearms licensing process is not the issue and is relevant in ensuring the owner is a fit and proper person to own firearms. Hence protecting us as firearms owners and the safety of the general public.
But the process should be fit for purpose and not a postcode lotto and the cost should be ideally included within the application fee, or a set universal GP fee.

We are a long way away from a process that delivers that and no light at the end of the tunnel.
 
...the cost should be ideally included within the application fee, or a set universal GP fee.

I agree that the FLD contacting the GPs of FAC/SGC applicants seems on the face of it to be a good idea.
However, we really shouldn't be inviting anyone to make further rods for our own backs.

The costs relating to FAC/SGC adminstration are laid down in statute. If the HO/FLD want reports on us in connection with that process, and the reports cost money, then the HO/FLD should pay for those reports - since it seems very much against the spirit of the Firearms Act to increase above the statutory rate the costs of applying for certification to exercise the right to possess and use firearms.

There's no need for us to suggest that the statutory costs should be increase to cover those reports. If the reports are considered valuable in improving public safety, the government should make public funds available to pay for them. They might well decide to increase the statutory costs to do that - but they'll do that without us inviting them to do so. Would we not be better off preparing arguments to mitigate the impact of their doing so, in fact, rather than suggesting the plan to them?

This mania for 'consitency' really needs to be quashed as well. Geographical inconsitency in the detail of firearms law administration, as long as it is fair, should rather be seen a sign that the law is being interpreted according to different people's circumstances. To reduce the ability of the FLDs to interpret would, I think, be to invite inflexibility - which would work largely to our disadvantage.
Take the suggestion of 'a universal GP fee' for example. Apart from the arguments I've made against our paying for reports required by the FLD at all; what if the fee were set at what many GPs would see as a perfectly reasonable rate of £200? Super for the folk who have been charged £300 - less so for those charged £20.

In summary: the FLD should be funded to pay for the reports they need, and a possible result of the dogged insistence on consistency across the country is likely to result in nearly everyone getting a worse time, and the people currently getting the worst time to be in the same position they were before.

We must keep in mind that this whole situation appears to have arisen from the HO/Police deciding that the GPs (on the apparent say-so of their trade union - which really has no more success getting GPs en masse to do anything than anyone else does) would, for no fee, complete a straightforward factual questionnaire based on a read-through of the applicant's medical history held by them. At the same time, it was decided that further reports would, if needed, be paid for by the applicant - a point which shooting organiations at the time apparently failed to realise was completely novel, and seems to have been regarded by the HO/FLD/CCs (not altogether unpredictably) as an invitation lawfully to place applicants at the hazard of any fees for medical reports requested by the FLD.

And here we are.
 
We must keep in mind that this whole situation appears to have arisen from the HO/Police deciding that the GPs (on the apparent say-so of their trade union - which really has no more success getting GPs en masse to do anything than anyone else does) would, for no fee, complete a straightforward factual questionnaire based on a read-through of the applicant's medical history held by them. .
I wonder if an answer to the GP having to make time to review the patient's file as an extra-curriculum style chargeable exercise, whether that when an application is made or renewal due the patient simply makes an appointment with their GP for an assessment/review and the GP can respond based on this meeting.

So, no extra work required that would be additionally chargeable and the GP will have actually had recent contact with the subject of the review - rather than reviewing someone they may not even have seen for 20 years!
 
Trouble is we are past the stage of making rods for our own backs, more police forces are considering implementing mandatory medical reports and the 1968 firearms act gives that discretion to the chief constable.

As for paying for it I agree society at large benefits from it so should share some of the cost. Was that indeed not the principle behind firearms laws from day one.

GPs are businesses at the end of the day and firearms work is not medical care work just like a pilots or HGV or divers medical.
 
Knives are at the top of the list latley for murders so let's have a medical form to be completed by your GP
To buy a knife
A medical form must be shown to the seller before a knife is sold and then we have cars
The list could go on and on its ****ed up and will never be unfucked
 
Trouble is we are past the stage of making rods for our own backs, more police forces are considering implementing mandatory medical reports and the 1968 firearms act gives that discretion to the chief constable.

As for paying for it I agree society at large benefits from it so should share some of the cost. Was that indeed not the principle behind firearms laws from day one.

GPs are businesses at the end of the day and firearms work is not medical care work just like a pilots or HGV or divers medical.
First - no, we are clearly not past making further rods for our own backs. But just because we, or our organisations, have done so in the past doesn't mean we can't stop it now. In order to stop doing so, however, we and our organisations must be able to identify the occasions it's happened in the past, so that it can be avoided in the future.

Second, the principle behind the Firearms Act was that the applicant pays a statutory fee. That's the end of it.
Whether they raise the fee in future for whatever reason is another matter altogether - I can't see that it helps if we tell them we can see a good reason for them to do so now. They'll work that one out themselves, and we'll need to put forward arguments against it if the rise is solely to cover extra reports which are of no more benefit to the applicant than to the general public (of which the applicant, let us not forget, is also a member).

Third - GPs' practices are indeed private businesses. As such, they've every right to charge whatever (within what might be regarded as professional standards, of course) they think the market will stand for their services, be they of whatever kind. If the HO decides that FLDs need reports for every renewal/application, then the HO might be able to negotiate a standard rate - but that should be none of out business - as the FLDs should be funded to pay for it.

Fourth - let's not get in a muddle over divers' and HGV drivers' medicals. I've no idea what divers' medicals are about - but AFAIK HGV drivers need a medical to keep their licence because without a licence they are not allowed to drive - because there is no right in law to drive an HGV.
FAC/SGC applicants are applying for certificates of fitness to exercise a right - and as such, the fee for grant/renewal is set statutorily.
 
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Please how are we going to stop it now? If you have an idea please share it,

My complaint against the Kent chief constable via the Kent crime commissioner failed I am able now to appeal to the IOPC and am seriously considering to do so, but if you have a better idea I would be pleased to here it.

They all ready know we will pay what ever it takes to get or renew a certificate it is happing every day in several police forces, and nobody has stood to be a test case so far.
 
Please how are we going to stop it now? If you have an idea please share it,
If by 'it' you mean our current situtation then I have no idea how, as an individual of restricted means who wants an FAC/SGC, one can do much other than shut up, put up, and pay up.

If you mean 'how can we stop making rods for our own back' than all we have to do is to stop suggesting unhelfpul things: e.g. a uniform application of unjust interpretation of the law and/or 'rules', additional increases to statutory fees etc.

My posts are intended largely to draw the attention of our organisations to the ways in which they might inadvertently have sold us down the river; in the hope that they will recognise that the current problems have arisen with their no-doubt well-intentioned acquiescence, and in the hope that recognition of this will make them change their behaviour to the extent that their colossal resources will be better directed in the near future effectively to challenge the HO and Police with respect to their current approach.
 
BASC or any othe org could support a test case - member or no -it would have universal effect.

When I spoke with Conor he told me that to date nobody who has been frustrated by the medical process and contacted BASC has volunteered to be a test case.

BASC are reviewing the appeal document I have written which if I decide to go ahead with I must submit very soon as I only have 29days to submit the appeal after receiving the response to the original complaint from the PCC office.
 
When I spoke with Conor he told me that to date nobody who has been frustrated by the medical process and contacted BASC has volunteered to be a test case.

BASC are reviewing the appeal document I have written which if I decide to go ahead with I must submit very soon as I only have 29days to submit the reply after receiving the response from the PCC office.
Sounds interesting.
 
Been reading this thread and share most of the frustrations expressed by others.

Unfortunately, there does not seem to be much that we can do as it can only become harder and harder for responsible people to obtain the certificates they need!
 
With great respect sir,, think on this,, how would you feel if those questions weren't asked and some young crazy youth not as level headed as your grand daughter, went postal and hurt her with a firearm, my guess is you would be wondering and outraged as to why the police had lapsed in their duty to protect her. am I correct?
Now that's a first "with respect" :rofl: :)
 
When I spoke with Conor he told me that to date nobody who has been frustrated by the medical process and contacted BASC has volunteered to be a test case.

BASC are reviewing the appeal document I have written which if I decide to go ahead with I must submit very soon as I only have 29days to submit the appeal after receiving the response to the original complaint from the PCC office.

One wonders then, why, if there are grounds to represent someone over medicals, there are NO GROUNDS to Judicially Review. I refe also to Finn's case where he offered to be a test case and was not taken up instead a 'negotiation' was carried out by BASC on his behalf. I wonder why.
In fact there are a lot of apparent contradictions in this.
 
Now that's a first "with respect" :rofl: :)
Riddick, I was asked a similar question at an inquest into the death of a girl in the back of a car who drowned. With respect your question is so hypothetical as to be rather unreasonable.
In my case there were two people in the front seats who could have saved her but it was the road which was to blame and I had to answer this on oath and avoid upsetting an already emotionally charged situation. I am sure you can imagine the question, as I have a daughter.
 
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