Bringing back detachable iron sights

[scrumbag]

@alberta boy speaks good sense on skinner sights, they are pretty well made things. @Kalahari recently got a set installed on one of his rifles. You can order direct from Skinner in the USA and they ship internationally - I found dispatch prompt. USPS not so much but you see it crawling across the US as they provided a tracking number.

Scrummy

 

[Kalahari]

@alberta boy speaks good sense on skinner sights, they are pretty well made things. @Kalahari recently got a set installed on one of his rifles. You can order direct from Skinner in the USA and they ship internationally - I found dispatch prompt. USPS not so much but you see it crawling across the US as they provided a tracking number.

Scrummy

Crawling being the operative word. My sight went west to the coast before setting off for the east coast and over the Atlantic. Sort of see a lot of States in your travels tour! Still a nicely made bit of kit and a few minutes with a sharp fine file sorted out the fitting into the dovetail on the rifle.

David.

 

[Dicken]

No. It's for a different purpose in many cases. Although maybe not with your 1950 Model. It used to be the case that one could tell a British market rifle made for use in India vs one made for use in Africa. The one for Africa would often be sighted out to 1,000 yards or more.

The practice on safari being to "brown" a convenient herd of meat animals and the send the trackers and etc., to follow up and bring back the meat from the animals killed for meals. In India this didn't happen. People went home for tea (pretty much) so rifles for India weren't sighted so.

My own 1905 .280 Ross that I once owned was an "African" rifle as it had a mid-sight fixed and folding baldes to, from memory, 500 yards with a ladder sight as part of the mid-sight out to 1200 yards or so. The same 1905 Model for Highland or Indian use I've seen with just fixed and folding blades to merely 500 yards or so.

The other one time convention was that (regardless of where it was being stationed or posted) if an officer's private sporting rifle COULD USE service .303 ball AND ALSO was sighted to 1200 yards it could be sent out accompanying his battalion's or regiment's service weapons at the War Office's cost and not his own.

So you could use your peep with the mid-sights in place but only at ranges where the required elevation gave a line of aim that cleared those mid-sights.

Thanks for that information. It prompted me to have a closer look at the peep sight, which I have never used as the rifle has a detachable scope. It is hardly a peep sight, being more of a Ghost Ring as Jeff Cooper would have called it. In so far as I can see it is graduated from 0 to 300 yards and when I screw it up to 200 the sights mounted in front of the action do not interfere with the sight picture. I shall get it out to the range in the near future and see how it shoots.

 

[scrumbag]

Thanks for that information. It prompted me to have a closer look at the peep sight, which I have never used as the rifle has a detachable scope. It is hardly a peep sight, being more of a Ghost Ring as Jeff Cooper would have called it. In so far as I can see it is graduated from 0 to 300 yards and when I screw it up to 200 the sights mounted in front of the action do not interfere with the sight picture. I shall get it out to the range in the near future and see how it shoots.

Could be worse. Zeroing at 200 is probably 1.5-2" high at 100 so very handy for stalking at most UK ranges.

Scrummy

 

[Corvid8x57]

Have just bought a Blaser K95 with open sights. I zeroed it this morning, but had got so wet that I didn’t end up having a play with it without the scope. Winter challenge will be a fallow doe over open sights

 

[User00040]

Above is my L461 with the aperture backsight fitted. Factory front sight is still attached as the rifle (thankfully) avoided a visit to a 'chopper' in it's 60 odd years of existence.

Below is a 100m target, yellow marker to 9'oclock of the bull is with the aperture backsight on it's 100m setting, yellow marker next to the '6' is with the aperture set to 200m. The green marker next to the yellow one is the rifle displaying a return to zero ability with the windage adjustable factory scope mounts refitted.





Not bad for an old girl...

 

[TomDeer]

My Haenel Jaeger 10 Pro has detachable open sights. I have to confess to having just left them in situ and stuck a scope on it though. I'm shooting it unmoderated at the moment so have left them on. Playing with the open sights is something to be done in due course.

 

[Sambarrmann]

Crawling being the operative word. My sight went west to the coast before setting off for the east coast and over the Atlantic. Sort of see a lot of States in your travels tour! Still a nicely made bit of kit and a few minutes with a sharp fine file sorted out the fitting into the dovetail on the rifle.

David.

At least your mail is moving. I've been trying to send a couple of my books overseas, to RSA and India, but the PO won't take them because planes are not presently taking mail there.

Is that perchance a Pecar gracing your Sako, Caberslash?

 

[User00040]

Is that perchance a Pecar gracing your Sako, Caberslash?

Very much so, a 6X45 Champion model.

Hear they are very much prised in your neck of the woods.

Picked this one up for around £70.

 

[User00026]

That's the idea!

Brno has been doing this for 30+ years

 

[Sambarrmann]

Thanks caberslash,
yes, Pecar and Kahles were the premium scopes here during the 1960s (Zeiss and Nickel were around but rarely seen) and those who know still want Pecars - probably because it was the only brand that seems not to have folded to conventional image-movement.

Finding a good Pecar 6x45 at £70 recently would be extremely good value - the going rate out here would be closer to $400 (£200-plus). Part of the reason for this is most Pecars imported were steel but with no demi-mounts soldered on, so it is easier to reuse them than it is with soldered-on claw mounts or the dural scopes with rails.

 

[scrumbag]

Thanks caberslash,
yes, Pecar and Kahles were the premium scopes here during the 1960s (Zeiss and Nickel were around but rarely seen) and those who know still want Pecars - probably because it was the only brand that seems not to have folded to conventional image-movement.

Finding a good Pecar 6x45 at £70 recently would be extremely good value - the going rate out here would be closer to $400 (£200-plus). Part of the reason for this is most Pecars imported were steel but with no demi-mounts soldered on, so it is easier to reuse them than it is with soldered-on claw mounts or the dural scopes with rails.

What is it with Ozzies and not liking image movement?

Scrummy

 

[scrumbag]

Hi Folks,

I am currently looking at putting a set of iron sights on my CZ452.

Getting a rear peep isn't difficult, there are Skinner sights that fit the dovetail or onto a Pic / Weaver rail, the issue is front sight and front sight height as rifle doesn't have front sight ramp or dovetail slot.

So, question is: what size ramp and what size front sight blade? Tough question as if you fit the wrong ramp you won't get a blade that works. I asked the folks at Skinner this question and they came back with:

"The Shorty Ramp is a super choice, with so many dovetailed front sights to choose from.

It sounds laughable, but cinching a black zip tie to that barrel with the tail bent/oriented sticking straight up to use as a front sight will tell you how high overall a front sight/ramp combination needs to be to zero with our rear sight.

Just keep clipping a bit more off the top end with nippers in between shootings until your elevation is correct/zeroed, then measure the height from top of the barrel arc to the top end of the zip tie. Fine tuning can be done with the rear sight once the new ramp/front combo is in place and correct within .025” or so.

Most dovetailed front sights look best between .350-.400” to about .500” when in a ramp, so knowing the overall height will tell you which height ramp will match up with a .350- .500” front sight to be correct overall.

Shooting @ 25-50 meters is best.

Thank You for checking in!
Rob O
Skinner Sights"

It aint dumb if it works. I shall try it and report back.

Scrummy

 

[User00040]

Thanks caberslash,
yes, Pecar and Kahles were the premium scopes here during the 1960s (Zeiss and Nickel were around but rarely seen) and those who know still want Pecars - probably because it was the only brand that seems not to have folded to conventional image-movement.

Finding a good Pecar 6x45 at £70 recently would be extremely good value - the going rate out here would be closer to $400 (£200-plus). Part of the reason for this is most Pecars imported were steel but with no demi-mounts soldered on, so it is easier to reuse them than it is with soldered-on claw mounts or the dural scopes with rails.

The Pecar Champion model was indeed an 'image moving' reticle scope.

This thread goes into a little detail: pecar berlin 6x45

This is the Pecar website before it went bust, you can have a look at what they offered: INDEX

 

[User00040]

Hi Folks,

I am currently looking at putting a set of iron sights on my CZ452.

Getting a rear peep isn't difficult, there are Skinner sights that fit the dovetail or onto a Pic / Weaver rail, the issue is front sight and front sight height as rifle doesn't have front sight ramp or dovetail slot.

So, question is: what size ramp and what size front sight blade? Tough question as if you fit the wrong ramp you won't get a blade that works. I asked the folks at Skinner this question and they came back with:

"The Shorty Ramp is a super choice, with so many dovetailed front sights to choose from.

It sounds laughable, but cinching a black zip tie to that barrel with the tail bent/oriented sticking straight up to use as a front sight will tell you how high overall a front sight/ramp combination needs to be to zero with our rear sight.

Just keep clipping a bit more off the top end with nippers in between shootings until your elevation is correct/zeroed, then measure the height from top of the barrel arc to the top end of the zip tie. Fine tuning can be done with the rear sight once the new ramp/front combo is in place and correct within .025” or so.

Most dovetailed front sights look best between .350-.400” to about .500” when in a ramp, so knowing the overall height will tell you which height ramp will match up with a .350- .500” front sight to be correct overall.

Shooting @ 25-50 meters is best.

Thank You for checking in!
Rob O
Skinner Sights"

It aint dumb if it works. I shall try it and report back.

Scrummy

Thanks for sharing @scrumbag , the zip-tie tip is a great one!

I'll remember that for when the zombie apocalypse comes and all the gunsmiths are permanently closed.

Looking forward to hearing your progress, Skinner's design looks very nice and simple but I would worry a bit about the aperture protrusion.

The NECG and Sako hooded design is a bit more 'snag-free'.

 

[scrumbag]

I do have one of those NEGC sights:



It might get pressed into service. Must admit though, it is chunkier than you might think.

Scrummy

 

[User00040]

I do have one of those NEGC sights:

View attachment 210356

It might get pressed into service. Must admit though, it is chunkier than you might think.

Scrummy

How big is the hole if you screw out the whole aperture? Ghost-ring like?

 

[scrumbag]

How big is the hole if you screw out the whole aperture? Ghost-ring like?

Yeah, pretty large

 

[Sambarrmann]

I'm not sure how many other Aussies don't like image-movement, Scrummy - maybe my book has had more effect than I know. A lot of the old timers like Pecar and old Kahles scopes for their toughness and reliability but I don't think too many have thought out what makes them so tough. Maybe some Aussies are more sensitive to stuff like this because our premier game animals are the sambar or Indian elk and Timor buffalo. Sambar is not only the third biggest deer species in the world but tougher than most others and rarely drops where you hit it. For this reason many of us use rifles like the 338 Win mag, 9.3x62, 375H&H mag and .458. I use the first two calibres most of the time but killed the last sambar with my db .450/.400NE.

I think I sent you a copy of the book but keep finding out new stuff and adding it as a bonus. Remind me of your email address and I'll send you some of the new discoveries.

Thanks for the Pecar info, caberslash, very interesting. Yes, the Champion reticle is constantly centred but not in the way most, if not all, other modern scopes are. Most articulate the entire erector set, reticle and power-scroll mechanism (in variables) in a hinged tubed, which makes them subject to five-to-10 times as much damage from recoil inertia. The Pecar Champion is like the old reticle-movement scopes except it has a restrictive field stop around the FFP reticle itself (reducing the inside reticle-ring diameter from about 15mm to 11mm). This cuts the field of view but stops the reticle from looking like it is moving out of centre when you wind it far. That concept is a bit dodgy, too, but at least it doesn't risk the inertia-damage problem.

Looking at your links, I see they seem to claim the variables have constantly centred reticles, too. That's the bit I don't understand yet.

Cheers
- 'Sam'

 

[scrumbag]

Hi @Sambarrmann , your book is certainly interesting. Not sure I’m totally convinced but an interesting view.