Chris Packham - libellous towards the shooting community!

cjm1066

Well-Known Member
His libel action against others is well reported. The old adage give him enough rope and he will hang himself seem to be coming to fruition as he is now drifting towards supporting direct action and law breaking Daily Mail artcle

The latest Wild Justice Newsletter on the NRW consultation on game bird releasing is potentially libellous towards the shooting community, are we able to initiate a legal action against him and Wild Justice????

Q4. Do you agree that common pheasant and red-legged partridge should be added to Part 1 of Schedule 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 in Wales?This change would mean that releasing those species in Wales would need to be carried out under licence. Please give reasons for your views.

I strongly agree with this proposal. This is a proportionate and logical response to the issues laid out in the consultation document and its accompanying papers.Self-regulation will not work as here we are dealing with the shooting industry - a notoriously uncooperative group of people who promote self-regulation but rarely deliver it (eg on wildlife crime, moorland burning and lead ammunition use). The shooting industry always claims to be highly regulated whereas in fact shooting is almost unregulated across the UK with respect to many other European countries.

Q5. If these speciesare added to Schedule 9, please give us your views on whether our proposed licensing approach would be effective and proportionate?

I generally support the proposals but they need to be made tougher in order to build on lessons learned from the last few years in England - Wales should dobetter.

Enforcement and monitoring - the shooting industry cannot be relied upon to stick to new regulations, it is a notoriously conservative industry which is reluctant to change. NRW must ensure that monitoring and enforcement of compliance is in place. In England, Natural England has not carried out this function, andneither does Defra and so the regulations are not properly enacted. Wild Justice has recently (8 June) started a legal challenge to the regime in England.

Use of general licences - I believe that instead of a general licence, these measures should be enforced through individual licences where anyone wishing to release gamebirds must apply for an individuallicence. Such measures were not introduced in England but have now been imposed for releases close to many 'European Sites' partly as a response to the widespread prevalence of avian flu and well-founded concerns over the role of gamebird releases in exacerbating the problem through providing a very large reservoir of captive bred and released birds. Wales should move directly to this approach.

Reporting of releases - an individual licensing system would go a long way to providing information on numbers of birds released and their locations. Current measures, including the APHA poultry register, provide very little useful information on which to base future improvements to regulation.

Should Mallardreleases be included in these measures? - at a time of avian flu, but in any case, why are not Mallard releases covered by these proposals?

Buffer area around sensitive sites - the 500m proposal is not based on the current scientific evidence. Gamebirds travel much further than this from release sites.Based on the current evidence I would support a buffer zone of 1km. The maximum distance travelled by released gamebirds (Pheasants) in the study by Turner (2007) was, on average, over 900m and this only considered the first three months after release - gamebirds can be expected to disperse further in the other nine months of their first calendar year, and beyond. It is a commonplace event whilst travelling in the countryside to see gamebirds far from any potential release sites - the 500mzone is not supported by evidence and is not fit for the purpose of protecting sites of conservation importance.

Will the proposals be sufficient to protect sites of conservation importance? - the English regulations largely ignored the impacts of gamebirds on reptile andamphibian populations, the effects of gamebird releases on mammalian predator populations, the indirect impacts on lead shot use and the impacts on avian flu transmission to poultry and to wild birds. In England stronger measures have recently been introduced (individual licensing near SPAs) which partly address the avian flu issue. I see that Annex 3 of the consultation papers provides a long list of known or suspected impacts of gamebirds on wildlife of conservation importance and thatincludes reptiles and amphibians which were largely ignored by Defra. There is clear need for tougher regulations than were initially introduced in England and I strongly feel that NRW should introduce a larger buffer zone (1km) and individual licensing of releases as its starting point for effective regulation of harmful impacts of gamebirds on native wildlife.

Charging for licences - NRW and Defra have both moved to a positionof regarding non-native gamebird releases as a wildlife conservation issue which must be controlled. The polluter pays principle should apply here and the eventual licensing system should not be a burden on the taxpayer. I support individual licensing of releases and those licences should carry a charge. This can also be seen as a charge on the failure of the shooting industry to self-regulate over recent years and their opposition to any form of new regulation which will protect theenvironment.

Q6. We have based the proposed general licence conditions for pheasant release on the recommendations in the GWCT guidelines for sustainable gamebirdreleasing. However, the guidelines do not include specific density thresholds for red-legged partridge and there appears to be less evidence on which to base conditions relating to partridge. We have used what evidence is available, and expert opinion, to propose conditions for partridge releases. These are either based on a density threshold linked to the area of cover crop provided, or on density per hectare of release pen (as with pheasants), depending on how the birds are released. We wouldwelcome views on whether these proposals are appropriate and workable and whether they could they be improved.

I do not regard the GWCT guidelines as having taken sufficient account of new evidence or the current condition, and they were produced by an organisation stronglysupportive of gamebird shooting. NRW should take a precautionary approach and assume that all impacts are worse than GWCT recognise.

Q7. The GWCT guidelines include a recommendation that no more than one third of woodland with game interest should be used for release pens. This is toensure sufficient woodland remains that can benefit from habitat management activities. We would like to include this recommendation in our proposed general licence. However, we would prefer to be able to define what can be included in the calculation. Do you have suggestions for how this might be achieved?

I do not regard the GWCT guidelines as having taken sufficient account of new evidence or the currentcondition, and they were produced by an organisation strongly supportive of gamebird shooting. NRW should take a precautionary approach and assume that all impacts are worse than GWCT recognise. In any case, these measures do not in themselves limit the scale of gamebird releases - if a woodland currently has release pens that occupy less than a third of the woodland area then increases in gamebird releases would be possible. This is not what NRW should be accepting. An individual licensingsystem and a 1km buffer would go some way to addressing this point.

Q8. Location and density appear to be the main factors influencing the environmental impact of releases, but we recognise that smaller releases in lesssensitive areas are likely to present reduced risks. It may be appropriate that small gamebird releases taking place away from sensitive protected sites and their buffer zones are not subject to the same general licence conditions that apply to larger releases. Do you think this is something we should consider? Please give reasons.

Many smallreleases add up to the same cumulative impact as few large releases - it is the overall impact that NRW must address. I cannot see that this approach does anything other than complicate matters to the benefit of very few individuals and the potential disadvantage of the wildlife that NRW must protect.
 
Don't see a libel. Most of it is opinion. The bit where he says shooters don't self regulate is factually correct simply from the evidence on shooting raptors. Probably true on lead ammunition usage as well as I don't see people shooting steel over water.

You may not like it but it doesn't mean he is wrong.
 
Don't see a libel. Most of it is opinion. The bit where he says shooters don't self regulate is factually correct simply from the evidence on shooting raptors.
How did you determine its factually correct from the facts that several hundred thousand people shoot and a small handful of gamekeepers occasionally are found to have committed a raptor related crime? The only facts available on the extent of shooting or killing raptors is that a large number of people shoot and an insignificantly small proportion of them shoot raptors. Everything else is conjecture. You may wish to accept the claims of antis, but that does not make them facts.
Probably true on lead ammunition usage as well as I don't see people shooting steel over water.

You may not like it but it doesn't mean he is wrong.
If we don't like it, it doesn't mean he is wrong. The facts mean he is wrong. As you will have noticed, his submission twice urges the government not to accept the scientific evidence but to assume an alternative reality.
 
he still has admirers in our community
Does he? I can't imagine any members of SD agreeing with CP's views much less admiring him. However, I think @NullMac is right in questioning whether he has libeled anyone. His remarks may be both wrong and ridiculous.... but that doesn't make them libelous. And I think it is important to understand this otherwise we risk wasting our time chasing shadows and starting a fight on grounds we will never win.
 
He seems intent on supporting groups that break the law and even appears to condone the actual acts of law breaking
The Animal rising group seems to be targeting the racing and greyhound industry. As we know this is a very large industry to target, with , dare i say it, OCGs on the periphery. He might just bite off more than he chew with this one.
Heres hoping!
 
I think we need to treat CP with respect. But let's not muddle this with admiration. Like it or not (and I don't like it) CP is shaping up to be a formidable and effective adversary. He poses a real threat to both shooting and stalking. However, showing him a lack of respect (for instance by commenting on his autism) risks underestimating this threat. Abusing CP allows him to take the argument in a direction that can only hurt our cause not help us defend it. We need to win this argument on its merits - by highlighting the intolerant and incoherent arguments advanced by CP and those who support him.
 
He might just bite off more than he chew with this one.

Sorry to post again - I don't want to monopolise this thread. But I think @del.gue makes a really good point. The wider CP spreads the net (greyhound racing, steeplechasing, fishing...) of lawful, popular activities he would like to see banned, the more people he will alienate. An important way in which we can defend stalking is by highlighting the threat that CP's beliefs represent to other activities. We are a small community. We need to cultivate a broad base of support among the general public by exposing how CP's intolerant agenda will eventually impact on them and all the things that they believe they should be free to do.
 
CP put up with a lot of stick from AR activists when he defended deer management with rifles a few years ago. As for other forms of shooting, I seem to recall him speaking out against illegal raptor persecution and those who tacitly condone it. He also questioned some of the practices associated with the more intensive forms of gamebird shooting. I do remember that the CA misquoted at least one of his comments to remove the distinction between legal and illegal activities, making it is seem that he was attacking all shooters. A lot of shooters swallowed the CA propaganda and never bothered to check what CP had actually said at the time.

Anyway, things went downhill from there. Maybe he is now an outright anti - I don't really know, because I don't monitor his utterances these days. But if he is, then we have to realise that some of the more extreme elements within our own ranks have had a part in this.
 
I completely agree with foxhunter.

Anyone treating this man with respect needs their head testing.

This man is wanting our way of life removed from the countryside. This may not effect the people on here who shoot one or two deer a year and feel its necessary to back this man up, but its a different story for the keepers and stalkers who live this life day in and day out.

Every decision made in regards to countryside and conservation matters should be factual based and scientific led, but maybe those who are siding with CP should be focusing more on what our current bodies such as the GWCT are doing rather than agreeing with his radicalistic and somewhat false ideas.

Yes, thhings have gone on and may well still go on in regards to illegal acts that provide the antis with ammunition, and this needs to be worked on!!
However, maybe we should start highlighting and banging the drum about previous illegal acts of the RSPB and Packham. Illegal acts are NOT soley subject to the shooting and gamekeeping fraternity.

Any person supporting this man is another weapon in his armoury and anyone who has the slightest interest in field sports and effecient countryside management should be outraged about his abuse of position.
 
Why treat Packham with respect when all he wants is to destroy our way of life .
Because, if you don't, you are playing directly into his hands and making it easier for him to achieve his objectives.

If you don't treat him with respect you run the very real risk of alienating the wider public... And stalking cannot afford to do this.

Boxers who don't treat the opponents with respect often end up lying on the canvas staring at the ceiling. But more to the point, when this happens the public laughs at them. The audience laughs not at their defeat but at the lack of respect that preceded it. Disrespectful people don't attract popular support or sympathy.

And stalking needs to secure both if it is to have a future.
 
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What needs addressing is

The public perceive Chris Packham as a champion for wildlife.

The public perceive the hunting and shooting fraternity as villains making money cruely or shooting for the sake of it.

No amount of ridicule or denigration of him will persuade the public differently. Only factual open debate and projection by the Hunting shooting groups will reveal the true picture.
 
So WJ are at it again with CP banging his drum.
To quote Bricktop "Do you know what Nemesis is", well we have one now. Anyone showing this man respect and agreeing with him is playing into the clever sod's hands.
He and his ilk will destroy general shooting if someway of beating him is not sorted very quickly.
10-15 years left if we don't.
Maybe the Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers might give WJ the treatment, they could probably get away with it.
 
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You can only libel individual or individuals who can clearly be identified as the target of the allegation. An allegation against a general group is not a libel, even thought it may be untrue, and even though the general group is clearly defined.

Therefore to write that "soldiers of the Loamshire Regiment murdered prisoners of war" cannot be a libel as (even though the Loamshire Regiment might be but six hundred men) as no individual or individuals can be clearly identified.

However writing "A number of Senior NCO's of the Loamshire Regiment murdered prisoners of war" can't be a libel as "A number of Senior NCO's" is too vague as these might be any of the RSM, the several CSM and equivalent ranks such as CQMS, the Colour Sergeants, the Staff Sergeants and etc..

But as that identity doesn't has to be by direct naming as long as that individual can still be clearly identified even though they were not named. Therefore writing that "The RSM of the Loamshire Regiment murdered prisoners of war" can be a libel as there is only one RSM. And he can be identified.

Hope it helps explain the law...
 
He seems intent on supporting groups that break the law and even appears to condone the actual acts of law breaking
The Animal rising group seems to be targeting the racing and greyhound industry. As we know this is a very large industry to target, with , dare i say it, OCGs on the periphery. He might just bite off more than he chew with this one.
Heres hoping!
I'd laugh like mad if every racing stable or greyhound kennel tipped up on their doorstep and said 'OK, you win, we're giving up so you can have these animals now as our owners won't pay the upkeep because they can't race"
 
as much as i dont want to admit defeat, if you read enough on here people openly talk about ignoring a lead ban, either by stock pilling bullets or casting their own. also ive seen comments about shooting i think the wording was big crows during a discusion about ravens.
if we cant all stick to the rules and accept we dont like them, we shouldnt be suprised when more are forced on us.
game keepers killing protected birds is only going to turn supporr away from us
 
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