Deer Management Plans - cull figures and high numbers

[Hayduke]

Stick your finger in the air and make the number up. Or double the last cull number. That’s what the authorities and agents do.

Then claim the grant money.

Particularly difficult to get a reasonable number especially with transient species, which will quickly go nocturnal when you put the pressure on them, and they’ll move across land ownerships and landscape to where they are safe. Landscape scale surveys, counts and drone surveys can help, but only if everyone plays game, even then it’s difficult to get an accurate handle on it.

Whack what you can. Until they run out. And then the rewilders can reintroduce them!

 

[T.eddie]

What experience have you of cleaning a number of deer in one session Tom as hands on is the part is what needs to be time dependant, get a couple that run or fall or worse gut shot then the whole thing falls apart. The bit on paper is fine but all these people who are going to "fix" the problem have failed in the first place, the paper works process have out stripped the shooting by a country mile. The millennial words that crop up these days are "we are monitoring it"
If they had a grip on it then it would NOT be in the situation we have now.

Granted it is not easy but too many cooks ticking boxes will spoil broth.

My single handed approach is to catch one or couple out each time I go, the only plan is to shoot them as they soon go back to a place I can't

I've only shot multiple once, as the ground I've got isn't overwhelmed with deer, but it doesn't take away from the point that to set a realistic cull number you'd need to be honest with the time involved and the point of the thread is trying to determine the number as opposed to saying just whack them, as this won't help to try and secure funding for support

 

[VSS]

Smoke and mirrors.
Do some population survey work (drones, night-time counts, trail cams, impact assessments, etc etc), crunch some numbers, write a report using technical jargon such as "population pyramid" and "recruitment rate" and "fragile ecosystem",
submit the report in support of a grant claim, and then just get on and whack as many deer as you can.

 

[Tim.243]

I've only shot multiple once, as the ground I've got isn't overwhelmed with deer, but it doesn't take away from the point that to set a realistic cull number you'd need to be honest with the time involved and the point of the thread is trying to determine the number as opposed to saying just whack them, as this won't help to try and secure funding for support

Was that fallow? as then you are miles off the weights of small deer also getting them back as x2 50kg won't go in a Roe sack. By dealing with lots of deer on a piece of ground you get to know how you can read them which has nothing to do with funding as lots of people shoot lots of deer with out funding....you need a rifle not a clip board.
It is like waiting on the phone on hold for 40 mins then get transferred to a voice mail
" sorry I am out of the office at a meeting"

 

[T.eddie]

Was that fallow? as then you are miles off the weights of small deer also getting them back as x2 50kg won't go in a Roe sack. By dealing with lots of deer on a piece of ground you get to know how you can read them which has nothing to do with funding as lots of people shoot lots of deer with out funding....you need a rifle not a clip board.
It is like waiting on the phone on hold for 40 mins then get transferred to a voice mail
" sorry I am out of the office at a meeting"

It was roe, I don't have fallow and I agree

But that doesn't help the OP with the ask in support of getting the relevant info to support their funding request

 

[Tim.243]

It was roe, I don't have fallow and I agree

But that doesn't help the OP with the ask in support of getting the relevant info to support their funding request

I support getting on with shooting them while waiting for the cheque to turn up.

The old saying "farm by the crop not the clock" goes a long way.

 

[SussexSteve]

Rules need changing. No close season on bucks and does should be shot from September if no fawn at foot. Do away with night licences and let stalkers shoot them 24hrs a day. More landowners need professional stalkers on board and then utilise cull teams of professionals/recreational stalkers to assist. Too many recreational stalkers not doing enough now in my opinion because of a low venison price and increasing costs and the amount of hard work in culling a good number of deer every week. To answer your question join the local DMG, get a drone survey done to get a good idea of numbers and shoot everything on sight would be my advise

 

[bottletopbill]

AGREE with Tim and SussexSteve comments but not all recreational stalkers get a chance to go out often as they would like as they do not have a perm.
They would like to fill the freezers and help bring down the numbers of deer.
Think the main reason for high numbers may be because of safe spots who welcome bambie and the seasons

 

[Hayduke]

More professional stalkers?
Why? Who pays? Who benefits?

There are 2.2 million hectares of privately owned woods and forests.

Applying the WS1 deer grant at £105 per hectare, would equal a bill to the taxpayer of £230million.

The venison market isn’t going to pay for it.

 

[Tim.243]

Rules need changing. No close season on bucks and does should be shot from September if no fawn at foot. Do away with night licences and let stalkers shoot them 24hrs a day. More landowners need professional stalkers on board and then utilise cull teams of professionals/recreational stalkers to assist. Too many recreational stalkers not doing enough now in my opinion because of a low venison price and increasing costs and the amount of hard work in culling a good number of deer every week. To answer your question join the local DMG, get a drone survey done to get a good idea of numbers and shoot everything on sight would be my advise

Amen to that Steve........you need people who can go at short notice also as the herd have moved on to x field.
No good being at "HR" meeting when the text come through

 

[bottletopbill]

We all have commitments if you have a meeting or doctors or being paid to do a stalk.
Lets all agree let us get the number's down regardless of being full time pro stalker or stalker.
we all have the same interest in shooting we all have to try inform all the land owner's who love deer on there land.
To let us control there number's

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I've only shot multiple once, as the ground I've got isn't overwhelmed with deer, but it doesn't take away from the point that to set a realistic cull number you'd need to be honest with the time involved and the point of the thread is trying to determine the number as opposed to saying just whack them, as this won't help to try and secure funding for support

You don’t need to be realistic with the time you can spend - you need to be realistic with the number needing shot. The time you can put into it and the number you can put in your chiller / move are totally irrelevant.

The point that I (and I think VSS) are making is that the OP will be vastly unlikely to shoot enough to make a big impact so just crack on and shoot as many as possible until you start seeing change, dont fiddle while Rome burns.

To determine a cull number you need to know the total number you have, recruitment rate, mortality and the impact they are having as well as the result that you want and the number you need to be at to achieve that. Subtract one from the other and get presto - that’s your cull figure.

 

[baguio]

You don’t need to be realistic with the time you can spend - you need to be realistic with the number needing shot. The time you can put into it and the number you can put in your chiller / move are totally irrelevant.

The point that I (and I think VSS) are making is that the OP will be vastly unlikely to shoot enough to make a big impact so just crack on and shoot as many as possible until you start seeing change, dont fiddle while Rome burns.

To determine a cull number you need to know the total number you have, recruitment rate, mortality and the impact they are having as well as the result that you want and the number you need to be at to achieve that. Subtract one from the other and get presto - that’s your cull figure.

Storage of multiple large numbers of large carcasses and their waste also needs to be considered. Making a difference is usually a team game.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Storage of multiple large numbers of large carcasses and their waste also needs to be considered. Making a difference is usually a team game.

Agreed it’s a logistical problem but it’s doesn’t dictate the cull required to reduce numbers. Making it a team game helps but realistically, talking about a medium sized deer like a fallow, how many can people without facilities actually utilise a year. There is definately an argument for community larders if the government’s serious about reductions in numbers (speaking north of the border but it sounds similar in the south as well).

If something is 20 miles away but you can only walk 5 miles it’s doesn’t matter that you only have that capacity - you should be walking 20 miles or you will not get there.

 

[Tim.243]

We all have commitments if you have a meeting or doctors or being paid to do a stalk.
Lets all agree let us get the number's down regardless of being full time pro stalker or stalker.
we all have the same interest in shooting we all have to try inform all the land owner's who love deer on there land.
To let us control there number's

Who is we Bill, I have blocks of land where I don't know the boarding owners as often it could be a tenant farmer or people who have parcels of land dotted around the county. First you have to know them then have a phone number and if you don't shoot on their land they will not be interested.
I deal with quite a lot but like yesterday one answered a text about me going out last night around 3.30 pm and I had text the day before and I know him quite well lol

What is Bill's solution?

 

[bottletopbill]

Hi Tim i was only saying that some shooter's can only do certain times due to work and family commitments.
I know what you mean about land owner not getting back to you i have a small rabbit permission .
The owner as to be text or emailed days before i visit he may get back to me saying OK.
But i must not moan as every perm may lead to other perm's
If we all put the same amount of time as you do deer number's would be falling.
Keep up the good work

 

[teyhan1]

Having done both sides of the coin (professional and hobby stalking) large scale reductions require a commitment most recreational stalkers will find impossible to meet. This does not mean that they don’t have a part to play and must be included to ensure that over culling does not occur.
Here in Ireland they are just starting down the route of setting up regional groups to tackle problem areas. In my area here, we mainly have Red deer and they are way more canny than I had ever imagined having cut my teeth on Roe, Muntjac and Sika. They will move large distances when put under pressure and tracking/culling the herds is a full time job (in season). Fortunately the farmers just want them controlling so paying for stalking doesn’t really exist. If I did have to pay then it would never be worth my while. As an example, it took me 6 hrs to recover a Stag I shot a few days ago. Add in the 6 hrs previously looking for him plus vehicle, petrol, ins etc.
Large scale reductions really need full time professionals on board.
With regards to number reductions, I’m sure we all know that you have to bias your cull towards the females. With the seasons falling when they do, it doesn’t favour recreational stalkers. Once again, this is why you have to have professionals involved as they have working hours that match the deer not a 9-5.
I have never been a fan of the idea of unrestricted shooting. It pushes animals in to areas that they normally won’t be in and that landowners won’t have them shot. That then causes night raiding issues. Much better that a long term approach is used where a cull is thought about in terms of years with a heavy bias always towards females. I always tell my farmers that this is not a short job and they will never be rid of deer but I will get it to an acceptable level.

Anyway, got to go. Planning my son’s memorial.
Love you Charlie. RIP

 

[T.eddie]

You don’t need to be realistic with the time you can spend - you need to be realistic with the number needing shot. The time you can put into it and the number you can put in your chiller / move are totally irrelevant.

The point that I (and I think VSS) are making is that the OP will be vastly unlikely to shoot enough to make a big impact so just crack on and shoot as many as possible until you start seeing change, dont fiddle while Rome burns.

To determine a cull number you need to know the total number you have, recruitment rate, mortality and the impact they are having as well as the result that you want and the number you need to be at to achieve that. Subtract one from the other and get presto - that’s your cull figure.

Again I'd disagree. There is no argument that they need shooting I think on that we all agree

The difference being I factor in the ability to actually manage the carcasses into the cull target

 

[baguio]

Again I'd disagree. There is no argument that they need shooting I think on that we all agree

The difference being I factor in the ability to actually manage the carcasses into the cull target

And that is why we’re in this mess. Too many only shooting what they need to feed the family. The cull target should be totally separate. If the numbers are high you will have to up your game regarding dealing with carcasses and not reduce the target to what you can manage to process.

 

[T.eddie]

And that is why we’re in this mess. Too many only shooting what they need to feed the family. The cull target should be totally separate. If the numbers are high you will have to up your game regarding dealing with carcasses and not reduce the target to what you can manage to process.

I don't mean reduce the target, but you would need to be realistic with the owner. If that means the cull needs to take 2 years or 3 that doesn't reduce the overall cull number but I'm fact sets expectations