HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Reading some of these posts and replies makes me think we really DO need a regulatory framework in place around deer management qualifications!!! Say no more
Doe management
- Thread starter Tyla
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palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
The government don’t own any of the land on which I stalk
So you class a yearly as one born within the year of being shot? Are you saying 50% are carrying a fawn in their first winter?
Not always that simple… how do differentiate between any number of similarly mature does? How do you judge size in low light when detail isn’t always available? How do you know that a suitable younger animal will present for a shot when you yell “Oi!”? So many variables. Personally I don’t subscribe to the theory that a herd is led by a single matriarch & that removing her will remove the ‘knowledge’ of where to go & when etc. There will undoubtedly be does of a similar age, or even younger who have learned over several years, & that’ll have the same knowledge. Personally if I’m on a herd I chose my first animal on the basis of hoping to stop the herd from legging it & allowing me to take subsequent shots.
SikaSeeker
Well-Known Member
I see feeding grounds brought up in this tread. It’s not Alaska, it’s UK and Ireland we are in.
Blaser243
Well-Known Member
No, those caught at their first oestreus cycle, around 16 months of age. We can argue over whether that should still be called a "yearling" in stalking terms as opposed to husbandry terms if you wish, but arguably it isn't a mature doe either.
I do, however, acknowledge that my figures could be slightly out - although the principle remains correct. I am struggling to find the paper that records the 50%/85% figure (as taught on the Jelen ADM course and factored into the excel herd population calculator produced by them). Clearly in farmed NZ deer it was found to be a 85%/100% ratio (see https://deernz.org/public/assets/research/466.pdf).
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
On what population size was the Jelen ratios based? It would take a fairly large sample size, across many years due to weather and nutritional changes etc, to accurately put down ratios.
I’d take their study with a pinch of salt, esp if it’s designed to back up their own money spinning operations.
I split everything into yearling (up to 12 months old) and mature. I find mature does are pregnant 90 percent or more. I had to count and sex fetuses for the first few years on a contract and the sample included 200 ish fallow does a year. Interestingly twins were very rare only found once or twice a year so I would want some hard facts from people that say twins are getting common.
If you split the does into yearlings (up to 12 months) or mature it helps with population modeling because you can rule out the yearlings as not being able to drop a fawn and mature as most likely to give birth. You can then gauge the previous seasons cull effect on the next year's cull.
I work on the same basis and find the same pregnancy rate.
Was your foetus sex ratio 50/50?
Almost smack on 50/50
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
Being involved as a contractor/licensee for two large landowners, the cull 'plan' in both cases is simple:
"Go Stalking and often as possible, cull every deer you see, is legal to cull, and safe to shoot'.
No over-thinking here!
Its simple, isn't it?
"Go Stalking and often as possible, cull every deer you see, is legal to cull, and safe to shoot'.
No over-thinking here!
Its simple, isn't it?
When it comes to fallow, it all depends on your own situation on your ground. You might be 'lucky' and only have a few but most will have far too many - far more than the days when the late, great Richard Prior was writing the chapters in his books. When herds of 100 to 200 are hammering everything then I totally agree with taking every safe, humane shot at females.
We've got fallow encroaching onto what was a lovely roe/munty estate........personally I would prefer there wasn't a single fallow on the land.
We've got fallow encroaching onto what was a lovely roe/munty estate........personally I would prefer there wasn't a single fallow on the land.
Two almost adjacent permissions I have - one taken on last month is overrun with roe so required to cull everything in season. 5 miles away on other ground and we are managing the roe as the current numbers are low / sustainable. Every ground is different, every landowners requirements different, and this can change from year to year. I've found it's a constant balance so don't set myself hard and fast rules
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
No the knowledge is bred into them, on one of my bits I’ve shot Hinds on site for the last 10 years at least, stags too and every year with out fail they are using the same gaps in the hedge, same corner of the wood same routes across the fields within a foot.
My advice is just shoot them on site!
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I’ve just taken on a little bit of fallow stalking on some ground my boss has bought, the job is shoot fallow.
It’s surrounded by stalkers every in every direction, there is no management plan it shoot on site!
The only requirement is not to shoot the master bucks and that suits me, because dies are better eating.
It’s surrounded by stalkers every in every direction, there is no management plan it shoot on site!
The only requirement is not to shoot the master bucks and that suits me, because dies are better eating.
paulbshooting
Well-Known Member
Smaller size fallow are usual in areas of high population, as is extended birthing and sometimes twins. Years ago we had groups of smaller does and also group of small prickets running about. Incredibily smart and successful deer.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
The biggest rule the I can emphasise on herd species is do not thrash them!
You thrash them you will educate them and then you won’t see them nibble at them. Take an opportunity when it comes. Leave it a week have another go don’t go at it day in day out day and day out.
At every available opportunity, watch them, they will tell you a story, and then when they tell you where they’re going to and from then get in the right place at the right time and things will happen just do not and I cannot emphasise on the word not, go at it hammer and tong
You thrash them you will educate them and then you won’t see them nibble at them. Take an opportunity when it comes. Leave it a week have another go don’t go at it day in day out day and day out.
At every available opportunity, watch them, they will tell you a story, and then when they tell you where they’re going to and from then get in the right place at the right time and things will happen just do not and I cannot emphasise on the word not, go at it hammer and tong
That will definitely be my approach, there are far too many and a lot need to go. I understand they will be born with the instinct to survive but do you think they are born to know best road crossing places and winter feed locations? I would assume that would be learnt behaviour from the herd. My question was how taking that knowledge out of the herd, by shooting all the does, would affect herd dynamics. I guess it only need one adult to teach a lot of fawns. I've never seen such a big herd of such uniform age youngsters before.
Part of the brief on this ground, its quite small and surrounded by heavily shot areas, is to pressure them and try and discourage them from using it as a refuge. I believe the neighbours have been complaining that they cannot manage their deer properly while the have a hiding place where they can stay during the day. I only had it for a few months at the end of last season l, it'll.be interesting to see if I can influence behaviour with a full season to go at it
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