Finding old historical game records

Hopefully that has worked seems a hell off a gibblet to me.
And quite harsh country some parts could lie snow for months many winters
 
Possibly i was involved with that as it stated 1840s.
Was actually at Glenfeshie i dunno if thats were caper were reintroduced?
I remember reading, and it was VERY many years ago when I was in my pre-teens, about the reintroduction of caper' from Scandinavia. My recollection says there were quite a number of attempts over about a decade and a half and that they were fairly widely dispersed but one name sticks in my mind and that is Breadalbane. In the same chapter it related a tale about a cock caper' that attacked cars in Morningside in Edinburgh in the1930s! At school in southern Pethshire some friends and I chased the caper in the Keillour Forest and occasionally caught them in the fences. I also, in my 20s in the late 1970s, shot driven caper on Deeside, to reduce damage in the scots pine there as they were very numerous. The Victorian reintroductions must have been genuinely successful to have as widespread a population sixty and a hundred years later. The decline has largely been since the 1970s as gamekeepers became more poultry keepers and less fixated on vermin destruction; that is very sweeping and generalised but contains an element of truth as the post-war keepers used more poisons, until The Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 took effect. Thereafter more effort went back into trapping and snaring and the skills required for that. I am emphatically not being derogatory to 'keepers as for all of my life they have been a hard-working [far harder than me], group prepared also to share their knowledge and expertise with a wet-behind-the-ears young assistant factor, land agent and stalker.
 
Without wanting to be disrespectful to keepers, you have to remember that back then the keeper had to show his boss how well he was doing & as well as numbers in shoot days one easy way to do this was to show how many predators he’d culled. Gibbits we’re the norm - all dead predators hung up for the boss to see, and it wouldn’t be beyond the realms of believability for them to be a little bit ‘optimistic’ over their numbers when writing them down…

As others have said, you can’t argue with what has been recorded so don’t try & certainly don’t try to justify. A better approach might be agree the whole process was excessive & that modern keepers now understand the importance all wildlife plays in the wider ecosystem & that’s why BoP etc are thriving.

As for culling hedgehogs - they eat the eggs from ground nesting birds & when your job relies on keeping the wild population of partridges & pheasants alive, they went on the hit list!
Not doubting the general size of the predator bag nor that it was a shoot on sight for pretty much anything People didn't pay to shoot
but I do know a old stalker who had a job as a boy running the same dead foxes round 3 different farms of a morning to show the farmers how productive the lampers were

There may have been a bit of that going on as well inflating the bag
 
Im not so sure - more food about now ??? - just different food for perhaps fewer species. Imagine how much food was available in the hundreds of thousands of miles of hedgerows that have been removed - and the amount of meadows now lost - the splashes gone - the woods not managed
Im not going to list the species reliant on hedgerows - and the species growing in hedgerows as you should know :doh: :doh: :doh:
When did OSR first come in?
I know 1 farm which is 500 acres all put down to SFI scheme, we need to feed people! Back in WW2 the War Agg Dept plowed up every scrap of land to grow food which is still in living memory. No ponds or the marshes frozen over now as it is warmer, ducks need a drink of fresh water back then it could be frozen over for weeks birds starving also mallard don't fly up into your blackthorn bush for a feed....but you should know that lol

Change your C Packem pants more often :rofl:
 
I remember reading, and it was VERY many years ago when I was in my pre-teens, about the reintroduction of caper' from Scandinavia. My recollection says there were quite a number of attempts over about a decade and a half and that they were fairly widely dispersed but one name sticks in my mind and that is Breadalbane. In the same chapter it related a tale about a cock caper' that attacked cars in Morningside in Edinburgh in the1930s! At school in southern Pethshire some friends and I chased the caper in the Keillour Forest and occasionally caught them in the fences. I also, in my 20s in the late 1970s, shot driven caper on Deeside, to reduce damage in the scots pine there as they were very numerous. The Victorian reintroductions must have been genuinely successful to have as widespread a population sixty and a hundred years later. The decline has largely been since the 1970s as gamekeepers became more poultry keepers and less fixated on vermin destruction; that is very sweeping and generalised but contains an element of truth as the post-war keepers used more poisons, until The Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 took effect. Thereafter more effort went back into trapping and snaring and the skills required for that. I am emphatically not being derogatory to 'keepers as for all of my life they have been a hard-working [far harder than me], group prepared also to share their knowledge and expertise with a wet-behind-the-ears young assistant factor, land agent and stalker.

I agree entirely with u.
Im 20 or so years behind u but i know of lots of folk only 10yrs older than me.
Used to get free cartridges of the foresters to shoot black grouse, and this is not a grousey area.

U look at almost any Bto or bird survey almost every single type/species of prey bird started to decline around the same time across the whole UK.
Different feeding needs, different habitat etc.
Its not a coincidence.
Even in the late 80s still had decent numbers of waders country wide.

The habitat loss thing as far as i am concerned is just an easy excuse in many areas esp more upland areas, even over 150m which is really not high at all.
No doubt on lower ground it has been a big issue.
But over 150m the marigns for farming are pretty tight so not much chemicals being thrown about or even much land drainage or the land that was drained with grants in 70s is now blocked and needing redrained so back to wet/semi wet ground

Jall55 said something earlier about the state of nature resrves.
I used to be on the comittee for a local 1 for 10+ years.
Fantastic reserve, great manager lad do a lot of good for local town and kids.
But refuse point blank to do ANY predstor control.
Could be 15 or even 20 years since they fledged a mallard duck (or any ground nesting bird) yet always have 50 odd on the pond year round.
So mallard ard attracted in by the year round food and nice habitat but all it does is make predation easier.
In actual fact it causes more harm to local wildlife than good, comittee members just could not get their head round it at all.

Ur only talking shooting or trapping 4 or 6 crows and possibly a couple of stoats per year march april time.
Its just absolutrly crazy.
To be fair the manager told me to go do early morning and do wot needed done.
But i wanted it officail and put signs up to educate the many folk that walk there.
That is the massive harm r spb has caused brain washing folk that predator cobtrol is not needed
 
When did OSR first come in?
I know 1 farm which is 500 acres all put down to SFI scheme, we need to feed people! Back in WW2 the War Agg Dept plowed up every scrap of land to grow food which is still in living memory. No ponds or the marshes frozen over now as it is warmer, ducks need a drink of fresh water back then it could be frozen over for weeks birds starving also mallard don't fly up into your blackthorn bush for a feed....but you should know that lol

Change your C Packem pants more often :rofl:

There is plenty of food for people - plenty - The issue is half of it is simply wasted
Many SFI schemes help the soil and help pollinators - which you should know are required to grow food ! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
There is plenty of food for people - plenty - The issue is half of it is simply wasted
Many SFI schemes help the soil and help pollinators - which you should know are required to grow food ! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
I see you swerved the OSR question and most of the other cold weather question lol
 
I see you swerved the OSR question and most of the other cold weather question lol

Very little grown up here now - when did if first come in ? i take it you are meaning this fed things in the winter - well it did / does but maybe mainly pigeon
Was 14 th century - or if you mean in modern times 70s/80s ?

Its hard to see where your questions actually start and stop as most of what you write is one mad rant after another really - fair play you do seem to impress yourself and make yourself laugh out loud on most posts - i just wince
 
Very little grown up here now - when did if first come in ? i take it you are meaning this fed things in the winter - well it did / does but maybe mainly pigeon
Was 14 th century - or if you mean in modern times 70s/80s ?

Its hard to see where your questions actually start and stop as most of what you write is one mad rant after another really - fair play you do seem to impress yourself and make yourself laugh out loud on most posts - i just wince
As I said there are no harsh winters these days so enough food to go around for all despite the lack of hedges.
It was a simple question about osr perhaps to simple.
 
Of course with all that lead shot being fired off (these were the days of 1 1/8 ounce loads in the main) you'd question why there were so many buzzards and peregrines still alive to need to be killed. You'd have thought that there'd be none to kill.

So I just hope someone can "put another 50p in the ****" so we can be also reminded of the veritable "minefield" of spent lead shot that young grey partridge chicks back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries would have been surrounded by.


Because there was very little shooting going on compared to today.
 
Alright folks

Bit of a strange 1.
Ive ended up in an online debate elsewhere with some anti about some old vermin record from back in 1840s.

Ive seen old game records in past but never paid a massive amount of attrntion to the numbers.
Althou the amount of wildcats and PM culled always surprised me right up till fairly recent times just how high the culls were..

This record lists all the vermin killed and the amount of BoPs is truely staggering from 1 estate.
Like 600 buzzards, 100 peregrines and 20 ospreys, jusy a massive amount of stuff.
Especially considering its an upland estate, so fairly harsh climate and neighbouring estates will all be doing the same.
If the figures were 10% of that it would be more believable and still o lot of stuff.

Tried a bit of googling to try and compare other figures but cant find anything.
Several questions you need to ask:

1. Over what timescale? In a year - looks excessive. Over 10 years? Possible. Over several decades - totally plausible.
2. Where. Torridon - not very plausible. Norfolk? Quite plausible.
3. Can you see the actual game books (or images of them), rather than just a spreadsheet? Hard(er) to fake game books, very easy to fake a spreadsheet.
 
A
Aye the sheer volume of different species, finding suitable nesting sites and all putting up with each other.
I just cant see it.
Esp likes of Peregrines and Ospreys which have very specific nesting and habitat.
I dont know area very well but picked up nearby and very few cliff faces or big bodies of water yet killing 90 perrys and 17 ospreys

Plus the fact which makes me really suspicous i think estate has been bought and rewilded. The returns are meant to be in some land reform legal paperwork.
I may be wrong but numbers are just so so high and i cant see such high numbers all playing nicely with each other.



Aye i know some victorians were very anal with record keeping.
But numbers need to be realistic.
If someone tried to show u a record they were farming 10x the sheep u are on the same farm u would question it.
Records do not trump biology.

And to be honest its got me thinking, i may well be wrong and just interested now.
But generally speaking the reason they have so much game is because theyre was so few predators.
Possibly this was the very early days.
I mind when i 1st started going down into england for the grouse.
Some of those big grousey areas, if u keeper on a central moor u might never see or shoot a fox ur entire life keepering ( possibly a slight exageration, but not by much)
A retired keeper friend did keeper on such a central moor; he once went 18 months without seeing a fox on his patch.

To any countryman of any experience the numbers presented are wholly unrealistic, the overlapping territories required would make it impossible, and what would there be in terms of prey for all of them, given the aim of the laird would have been to enjoy the shootable surplus with his family or guests,

Edit; the caper came back in Scotland gracefully of the sustained and strenuous efforts of the Duke of Atholl and the Marquis of Breadalbane and their staff and agents who secured successive years worth of breeding stock and juvenile birds from Sweden

Keepers Geordie Irvine and Tommy Robertson both hand reared capercaillie successfully over a significant number of years in Speyside, all the while the RSPB were squandering our natural born heritage through disastrous policies, and all at the expense of both a duped public supporting their misguided management and not least the birds themselves.
 
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Several questions you need to ask:

1. Over what timescale? In a year - looks excessive. Over 10 years? Possible. Over several decades - totally plausible.
2. Where. Torridon - not very plausible. Norfolk? Quite plausible.
3. Can you see the actual game books (or images of them), rather than just a spreadsheet? Hard(er) to fake game books, very easy to fake a spreadsheet.

Aye cheers mungo.
Pretty much wot has been going throu my mind.
The numbers are just too high for that area.
To sustain them + plus the BoP hes missed would need a massive amount of protien to keep them all alive.

Seemingly over 3 years which is still a lot.
Esp coming from the cairngorms.

He did say theyre was a link but i couldnae get it to work ( but that is likely my fault) to an article in the Socialist Voice 'paper' so not exactly unbaised i assume ( althou never read it so i may be wrong) from got i can gather it from some legal documents from the Land Reform Bill.
Just too many things dont add up
Im guessing the estate which has now been rewilded left the returns in paperwork along with the title deeds?

Wether new owners have 'doctored' numbers or even the keeper way back then
 
The RSPB managed to enable hen harriers to destroy Langholm as a viable grouse moor in just 2 years ( even the keeper thought it would take 5 years!), and since then the harriers have also crashed, owing to lack of grouse and prey, and er, predation of their nests by the usual suspects, there being nearly no grouse nesting on the ground, only harriers.
QED
 
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A

A retired keeper friend did keeper on such a central moor; he once went 18 months without seeing a fox on his patch.

Aye in some the big grousey areas of n eng its even less likely to see a fox.
Just a different ball game when u have a continious managed area.
Keepers on smaller blocks or island moors surrounded by sitka really have their work cut out for them.

To any countryman of any experience the numbers presented are wholly unrealistic, the overlapping territories required would make it impossible, and what would there be in terms of prey for all of them, given the aim of the laird would have been to enjoy the shootable surplus with his family or guests,
Thats wot i couldnt get my head round, so glad not just me.
The only way i can see it being possible if that was their very 1st year of culling.
But even still u have all these BoP living far too close to each other.

Edit; the caper came back in Scotland gracefully of the sustained and strenuous efforts of the Duke of Atholl and the Marquis of Breadalbane and their staff and agents who secured successive years worth of breeding stock and juvenile birds from Sweden

Keepers Geordie Irvine and Tommy Robertson both hand reared capercaillie successfully over a significant number of years in Speyside, all the while the RSPB were squandering our natural born heritage through disastrous policies, and all at the expense of both a duped public supporting their misguided management and not least the birds themselves.

The RSPB managed to enable hen harriers to destroy Langholm as a viable grouse moor in just 2 years ( even the keeper thought it would take 5 years!), and since then the harriers have also crashed, owing to lack of grouse and prey, and er, predation of their nests by the usual suspects, there being nearly no grouse nesting on the ground, only harriers.
QED
Aye and to top it all off the new owners want to rewild it and encourage the trees.

So a SPA area for HH were numbers are already in free fall and they want to ruin the habitat as well.
U really couldnt make it up.
 
Aye and to top it all off the new owners want to rewild it and encourage the trees.

I’d like to see the business model or socio-economic case they expect to make; just as the RSPB forgot the birds, so the new lairds forgot the people. Broad brush approach for a very narrow and ill considered outcome, not that it matters — by the time they expect to begin to see results, all will change, utterly, again.
 
From The Living Wilderness about Atholl Estates, 1884/85View attachment 428106

Cheers Lochty

Bloody amazing they shot 7000 brace of grouse, 900 grey partridge and 700 phesant .
All be wild bred.
The Euston system of huts and broody hens would not of been invented then or would it?
And esp in those days, would breech loading shotguns be common back in 1840s era?

U can just imagine all the other wildlife around then too.

But not shooting massive amounts of BoP.
Sort of numbers i expected
 
Aye and to top it all off the new owners want to rewild it and encourage the trees.

I’d like to see the business model or socio-economic case they expect to make; just as the RSPB forgot the birds, so the new lairds forgot the people. Broad brush approach for a very narrow and ill considered outcome, not that it matters — by the time they expect to begin to see results, all will change, utterly, again.

Its the local community have bought it, thanks the the magic holyrood money tree.
I think their on about trying to buy more off it too.
From 5k acres to 10k

Causing a big fuss the now about culling sone goats.
For sone reason a company from exmoor? or way down south is involved advising them
 
It's always interesting to see how Estates were "managed" in years gone by. And o go slightly off piste from the OP. When I was a kid it was still common to see Moles/Stoats/Weasels and all sorts of feathered....err...vermin snecked on barbed wire to show how well the keeper/trappers were at their jobs.
I suspect that would give a portion of the population a fit of the vapours now!
Times change and we might not agree with past management, but that was then and this is now. Even from a fishing point of view salmon were killed in huge numbers and lesser species were dumped on the bank or buried - thankfully all practices that we have learned to move on from.
 
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