GWP advice from those into the breed

[trucraft]

Looking at a litter and wonder what those with more experience of the bloodlines think?
Be my first GWP. Have a vizsla at mo.
I haven’t been able to get hold of Rory yet but I will obviously be speaking to him too.
Sire Ekko @bryanscroft (Danish)
Dam Nell @ uplandpoint her pedigree attached

 

[Dunwaters]

No field trial or working awards?

 

[MGD]

I have a bitch from Elmo she is 6 now very biddable I was trailing her when she was 12 months old ,soft temperament and very intelligent

 

[MGD]

Ekko has won field trail ,Rory was at my house using my dog gwp on his bitch Luna my dog is out the moorrunner kennel both sire and bitch are ftch

 

[trucraft]

No field trial or working awards?

No non on bitches side that I saw. Owner has her for Falconry.
Would that be a deal breaker?
Ekko , Rory Majors dog.

 

[jimmy milnes]

A very good friend of mine has a bitch that was sired by Ekko and its a nice level headed dog that listens, has an off switch so happily sit in a pigeon hide all day, and a soft mouth.
Trials aren't my mates thing but it's a nice dog that does its job as a GWP should.
Personally I'd get a GSP but I'm biased
Cheers Jimmy

 

[Dunwaters]

No non on bitches side that I saw. Owner has her for Falconry.
Would that be a deal breaker?
Ekko , Rory Majors dog.
View attachment 209341

No, definitely not a deal breaker, but I like to see an award or 2. Thats because I trial my dogs and like that bit of pace and style.
If both sire and dam are good field dogs and you’re happy to take the punt go ahead, odds are that you’ll do fine.
There are no guarantees with pups regardless of pedigree.

 

[trucraft]

No, definitely not a deal breaker, but I like to see an award or 2. Thats because I trial my dogs and like that bit of pace and style.
If both sire and dam are good field dogs and you’re happy to take the punt go ahead, odds are that you’ll do fine.
There are no guarantees with pups regardless of pedigree.

Absolutely.
My main wants in any dog are that they are biddable and can be trusted in public.
obviously health and ability to hunt is important. I don’t think the latter is an issue with any GWP.

 

[Siggy]

The sire of the dam is a German import, read what you like into that, but UK Kennel club certificates don't give any of the scores for the German testing system so it is difficult to evaluate but if you can safely assume that the dog was good enough to be breed (within the breeding system) it should be okay. Some say German dogs are harder, maybe for working with boar but I think that's been over exaggerated. If you can train a wirehaired vizsla to your satisfaction you will be used to the negotiations necessary to get them working with you. GWPs might be a little more bold than vizslas and more likely to latch on to big game/sheep but they probably respond the same to discipline - it has to be fair or they get stroppy and uncooperative. In the Dams dams pedigree there is a lot of good dogs from the UK scene (at least I hope they are because they feature in my dogs pedigree) and there should be a prize for a GWP without the Complete Viking in their pedigree. Gavic was a good kennel but I don't think it's breeding any longer.

I saw Ekko at the game fair when Rory was doing a demonstration and was impressed.

Some GWPs do well at field trials but I don't think it's really their forte and fewer go through the trials so absence of field trial qualifications wouldn't worry me, unless that was my goal.

 

[trucraft]

Great info Siggy. Just what I needed.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

To Siggy's point, we have stopped giving KC pedigrees with our pups. We still KC register them but for trial/test results of imported dogs, we produce our own pedigrees. Also, remember that, on younger dogs, some databases are not up to date so the dog may have recently achieved awards that do not feature on official data bases.

While we to respect trial results, it has to be remembered that professional handlers with all the resources will manage to get far more awards than your average guy - but the raw material is the same. I have been blown away by dogs that have passed every test going but that might tell you more about the handler than the genetic raw material.

 

[trucraft]

Thanks guys
after speaking to Rory I’m going to pass on this mating.
Great breeding, heavy German lines and in Rory’s words very headstrong.

 

[llwynog]

Bear with me here, I'm not trying to cause offence.
When you talk about the GWP breed being headstrong, what do you actually mean?
Do you mean as opposed to a well bred black lab, or spaniel?
Or a two year old black fell bitch that's just been bitten by her intended quarry, or a fell hound on the trail of a fox.
I'd really like to take on training a GWP but if they are headstrong in relation to a working terrier that would prefer to die than give up the chase, then I'm sure they'd be a handful, and probably above my abilities.

 

[Siggy]

Thanks guys
after speaking to Rory I’m going to pass on this mating.
Great breeding, heavy German lines and in Rory’s words very headstrong.

On reflection, our latest GWP has a bit more Deutsch than previous, and she is a tad more "wilful"! The plus side is that she is showing signs of be very determined on the tracking, the down side is she doesn't appear to be that keen on waiting for the shot! Early days yet, and she hasn't yet been used in anger.

Given my experience with my first dog, I would strongly recommend looking at Danish lines, which appear to be keen hunters with out the headbanger element. My first GWP was the runt of the litter and very timid and I had a few dramas with introduction to gunfire, but right from her first muntjac to her last fallow she always on the money.

 

[trucraft]

Bear with me here, I'm not trying to cause offence.
When you talk about the GWP breed being headstrong, what do you actually mean?
Do you mean as opposed to a well bred black lab, or spaniel?
Or a two year old black fell bitch that's just been bitten by her intended quarry, or a fell hound on the trail of a fox.
I'd really like to take on training a GWP but if they are headstrong in relation to a working terrier that would prefer to die than give up the chase, then I'm sure they'd be a handful, and probably above my abilities.

Hi.
No, nothing like a lab
When I mean strong minded I mean testing their owner every step of the way. Needing a strong consistent hand.
Some individuals or certain lines are more than others and will require a owner/trainer to be on top of their game to get the best out of them.
I’m aware a GWP Trait is wilful and strong minded.
I’m looking for a dog that’s at the lower end of the GWP scale.
Rory is a very well respected breeder and trainer. What I like about him is he will never big sell his dogs.
I have had a dog off him before and he knows what I need and therefore put me onto a more suitable litter.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Hi.
No, nothing like a lab
When I mean strong minded I mean testing their owner every step of the way. Needing a strong consistent hand.
Some individuals or certain lines are more than others and will require a owner/trainer to be on top of their game to get the best out of them.
I’m aware a GWP Trait is wilful and strong minded.
I’m looking for a dog that’s at the lower end of the GWP scale.
Rory is a very well respected breeder and trainer. What I like about him is he will never big sell his dogs.
I have had a dog off him before and he knows what I need and therefore put me onto a more suitable litter.

I'll take my hat off to those who know their dogs and know how the pups are likely to turn out and sign-post potential buyers elsewhere if what they are selling is not what is wanted.

 

[countrryboy]

No field trial or working awards?

For a gwp working in a more normal gundog role or as a stalkng dog I'd say no FT history could actually be an advantage.

Not dismissing hpr FT but of absolutely no relevance to the way most gwp/hprs are expected to work, infact many positive traits for a FT could actually e negative traits for a "normal' working dog.
Not saying in the right hands and with right training, but having a highly driven gwp as ur 1st can be a very steep and stressful learning curve even if u have plenty of other gundog experience ( I know I really struggled with my 1st despite having plenty other gundog experience and training with some top hpr trainers)

I'd agree with siggy, that generally as a rule off thumb Danish dogs tend to be slightly easier going, but can be massive variations in litters and lines.

I know I also recommend to a couple of mates with very calm biddable bitches a Ftch wire as a stud I know quite well, cracking biddable dog but very hard hunting, absolute dream to watch or shoot over.
The bitches in both litters were meant to be absolutely brilliant, but the dog pups proved tobe very hard to handle, and some went to xperienced owners.

If u want a horse for ur kid/wife to plod around the field/local tracks u don't buy a horse bred of the grand national winner.
And let's face it a plodding gwp is still more than enough dog to handle any stalking/tracking or gun dog work most would ever throw at it, a super turbo charged 1 just can make life difficult.

Won't be much about the breed Rory doesn't know, same with Jackie hay at moor runner or Chris at trudvang, really know thier stuff, althou I'm sure a few other well informed breeders out there

 

[Dunwaters]

I’m going to disagree with your conclusion that a history of FT awards can be a disadvantage ( no surprises there).
An FT award, under either KC or IKC rules is a strong indicator that the dog is both biddable and has a high drive.
In both cases, FT’s are designed to simulate a typical rough shooting day. Dogs that are out of control, noisy, aggressive, hard mouthed, fail to indicate game or pass game are eliminated.
Which is pretty much as you’d expect and similar to the rules for Labs and Springers
Continental HPR trials are run under very different rules, but would still indicate that the dog was biddable and had drive, but some of the tests involve the dog hunting and killing vermin which doesn’t tend to result in a soft mouthed hound, they also seem turn a deaf ear to the odd whine or yelp, again, not something encouraged here.
I’d very much agree with you that GWP’s are not for the novice or the faint of heart, a fabulous tool in the right hands but a potentially expensive nightmare for the unprepared.
The breed is very much in fashion at the minute, at least it is over here, and a lot of handlers that would be much better off with something a bit less full on are dabbling, particularly during lockdown.
I think the GWP rescue societies may have a lot of pups on their hands before Christmas.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I think it is a case of 'be careful what you wish for'. Many sportsmen in the UK look for 'working-bred' as a means of ensuring health and fitness but sometimes fail to realise the amount of prey-drive and strong-willed determination that comes as part of the package. Most stalkers actually want a fit, healthy, biddable dog - a stalking companion.

Whenever we mention 'Spurlaut' in working dachshunds, hunting a hare line, with voice, for a minimum of 400 yards off lead many are horrified that the dogs are encouraged to follow the line as far as they can 'yip, yip, yipping' all the way. There is a story of a guy at a Spurlaut test watching the dachshund literally disappear over the horizon, he asked "what happens if the dog just keeps going?" The German judge smiled and replied "he earns more points"

 

[trucraft]

There’s always a balance.
You need to be able to stop or recall a dog for whatever reason. When you have a dog that will track or give chase into the next county that’s even more important.
I hate to see dogs that their owners won’t ever let them off a lead because they don’t have the control.