Help needed

[Allyson]

Hi I posted an introduction, I am keen to learn more about blood tracking etc and was advised to see if I could get any help from here. Got a Grey Dog, very experienced at tracking things other than deer, so would like to expand horizons; willing to travel, based in Wiltshire. I sound like a personal ad!

Any help would be most appreciated

 

[Dekit]

Give it time you will get an answer very soon, some of the guys are shy when talking to a lady

ATB

Steve.

 

[john d]

O.K. I`ll ask, What`s a grey dog???

 

[CraigBenson]

Just watch some CSI, they seem to be able to follow a scent trail with their litle torches. It's TV and has to be like that in real life.

 

[cookingfat]

O.K. I`ll ask, What`s a grey dog???

Weimaraner i think ? check out Allyson's intro

 

[8x57]

Weimaraner, often referred to as a grey ghost.

 

[Gazza]

Allyson, Having your dog qualify TDex obviously proves he/she has the ability to track and it would appear to be a matter of training to get him/her to realise "yes you can track human scent but now I also want you to track deer scent." So far the dog has been trained to ignore scents other than human and having done TD & PD I know that tracks are laid in all sorts of country which may or may not be frequented by deer. So deer may already be in his/her list of scents that he/she will recognise but has been taught to ignore.

When I was doing TD and PD the ageing of the tracks was 3 hours. I assume this is still the same. With deer trails you really want to get up past 4 hours when all human scent should be dissipated. This may be a factor in getting the dog to know what you want from it but I can see confusion arising especially if human scent crossed the track.

There is no doubt that dogs can be trained to detect all sorts of scents such as drug detection dogs that are now mostly all trained in cash detection but I would think the difference between that dog and yours is that a handler is only asking the dog to search and find one of the things that the dog has been trained to recognise whereas you would be wishing the dog to track a specific but would he/she know which one on this occasion. In live situations stalkers tend to have a look themselves and then when unsuccessful call in a dog. The area can be polluted with human trails - what would your dog go for. A deer specific dog would ignore the human scent looking for deer. I believe a dog could be trained to be cast out in an area where he/she will find deer or human scent and track but there would have to be only one scent available. If two were present the dog would never know which was the right one.

If your dog is 10 and you are serious about a deer specific dog have you considered an addition. This would probably be the easier route for both you and dog.

 

[Allyson]

Yes it is a Weimaraner, a longhaired one.
I am not looking for an addition as I currently have another dog a GSD with whom I compete in both Schutzhund and Working Trials, not got room for another one so have to wait for one to die..........
I have not restricted my dog to following tracks of a limited age and I have worked tracks of 24 hours old.
I have also used blood etc to get my dog to follow it rather than the old crushed vegetation etc, and wish to expand our experience and test us both. This is one of the issues I wanted to address so have experimented with dropping blood a good 6ft away from my footsteps.

For anyone that knows me, I have never taken the easier route, but thanks for the feedback it is really appreciated

 

[stone]

Allyson

Personal thoughts on this would be to go out with a experienced stalker who not only knows about dogs but also about tracking deer with out a dog
That way you actually learn about the whole process starting from the shot itself, to clues left at the shot site
The importance of this is greater than having a good dog, as if you can read the signs you will hav a better understanding of what you are expecting the dog to do and also realise when a deer is lost from the beginning of the trail regardless
As not all shot/wounded deer can/will be found
Laying cold blood trails is good and can be quite testing, but tracking a live fresh scent offers a different challenge
Hav you yet taken your dog to a deer park to associate it with live Deer and smells such as ****, fresh slots and general body scent wafting in the breeze??
also this way you can get up close to deer and possibly track a live deer by slots and scent alone , as you will hav a better chance of seeing the individual deer in question and the direction it moved off in
plus the added fact fresh deer smells/blood will override the dogs instinct to track your scent
as you know tracking is all about scent association
plus if you also learn a little bit about the deer species in your area, the chances are you will also get a better understanding of where the more non-fataly shot deer may of headed towards from a description of the ground given to you when you eventually get a call out to a deer that last was seen heading off into the sunset

As the likely hood if it was a gut shot roe or munty then they like to head for cover and often cover to thick to work a dog easily on a long leash in a munty's case
where as fallow will often just lay up in possibly in the same field they were shot in or with in 50 yards and often with fallow they either lie with their head up or lay low to the ground playing dead, whilst looking and watching you recognising those signs will stop you moving the deer on further and allowing a wounded deer to be despatched with out the extra hassle of chasing it further
chest shot deer react a little different and often leave a good blood trail , as do lung shot
but again being able to read the signs from different blood will help and also directions of blood splatter will help prevent working the wrong way up a blood trail
jaw and leg shot offer a whole new challenge in them selves

I don't see you actually having a problem finding a freshly chest shot runner with your dog as that will leave plenty of scent for your dog to follow easily
as it looks like your dog has been trained in an appropiate manner and is mature enough to cope and get on with the task in hand from the start
It's when you come across a live wounded one will be the main issuse and how to deal with that as each lively deer acts differently from the last one especialy with Roe bucks, as they don't particulary like to baye so may attack first before trying to escape
Also Muntjac hav pretty sharp tusks (canines) which they can use quite effectively and can cause some serious damage to a dog
I do hope some one local gets in contact who may be able to give you a bit of help on a day when their doing a bit of culling or a local stalker gives you a shout if they can't find one,
as their must be a few in your area on the site that do a bit of stalking and won't mind giving you a shout in the not so distant future

But Good Luck with your dog and hope you get a good few more years of tracking out of him
be interesting to hear how you get on
ATB

 

[Gazza]

Stone, Having worked both human scenting dogs and now a deer dog I find this thread quite interesting in what others may think. When I was trialling GSD's mainly doing tracking dog (TD) and Police Dog (PD) I travelled the length and breadth of the country attending trials. The venues for these trials was varied from a disused army barracks to the Yorkshire dales. The dog had to learn to ignore all other scents including deer. To achieve TDex Allyson's dog must be a very experienced human tracker. How would you see this dog being a successful deer tracker with the possible conflict of human scent also being present.

 

[stone]

Gazza
Going on the dogs ability of which by the standards it has acheived , which you also recognise and its age , plus also given the fact it's a Weimaraner
Nothing against the breed , just they were bred with hunting in mind and I can't imagine for one moment this instinct has been trained out of it unlike some of our other breeds of dog that hav been bred for a specific purpose in mind.

Plus I would say this dog has a bit more brain than you are really giving it credit ( not a dig, but some times you really can teach an old dog new tricks)
And given that all tracking is just scent association, to this dog a different scent is just that
If it was a 3 year old then I would feel it would not cope aswell or even cope at all with the change at all untill it had matured , as I feel this dog has matured
It has already taken and passed the BMH apptitude test
not that is anything special, but it is still a test of a certain standard related to deer,
so by passing this , it does show already it has distinguished the difference in scents and possibly might of tracked the blood instead of the person laying it, that is a good sign I would suggest
Also given the fact it has already been used to track blood does help if deer blood was used
Obviously in my eyes you are not really going to put a dog of this standard straight into the deep end with out doing a bit of extra training in the direction you are hoping to go,
I may be wrong , but as I don't actually know the dog or handler so I can't really say if they are or possibly they may feel the dog is more than capable which is fair enough, as if you don't try then you will never know

I still think it would cope with an easy find of which the handler could also visibly see and be able to watch how the dog is working,
Which is why I Also suggested visiting a deer park , so you can see what reactions the dog has and possibly gauge it's potential even at the age of 10 of possibly tracking deer to a high standard or even to a standard you feel is exceptable
Also as deer scent and blood is a lot greater than human scent and this will be a main factor to the dog, as I would possibly think it's noise now must be looking to start to degrade shortly if it has not already started,
and if it is adapting to the change from my experience of shooting deer and finding runners, it is always better to start to look for the deer with a dog at the point where the person who has shot it stopped looking , following the blood trail or last place it was seen dissapearing out of sight
that way the only scent on the ground is usually that of the deer and not the hunter..

 

[redstag01]

check bavarian mountain hound website,they hold proper tracking tests,they may let you watch but only bavarians can do test.

 

[stone]

check bavarian mountain hound website,they hold proper tracking tests,they may let you watch but only bavarians can do test.

Not sure you are quite correct with your info here redstag

 

[cookingfat]

Not sure you are quite correct with your info here redstag

+1 on that one for sure.

 

[Allyson]

Thanks for the information re the BMH site, I have already taken the aptitude test and will take Test 1` as soon as it becomes available (these tests are open to all and blood tracking is something that the HPR dogs do as par for the course on the continent).

I really want to get away from theory and into practise hence why I came on this site. We can discuss the pros and cons etc till the cows come home, what I am looking for is practical experience.

regards