Hornady .223 problems

[sir-lamp-alot]

Out of interest has anyone had any problems with 55gr hornady vmax .223 factory ammo?
A good friend who is an experienced fox shooter has had numerous foxes get up and run after being hit sometimes multiple times with a certain batch number of hornady ammo. Hes then gone and bought more ammo making sure that its a differnt batch number and the same thing has happened with one fox taking 4 shots to stop it with 3 of those shots all being well placed engine room shoots. As ive already said he is an experinced shot and his bullet placement is fine as is the groupings hes getting but he obviously cant go on like he is with most foxes all of a sudden getting up again and is wondering if anyone else is having the same issues, Ive told him to try and catch a bullet it water and to shoot a milk jug full of water with a board an couple of feet behind to try and going to get some idea of exspansion. Any ideas or experience welcome

 

[Rory]

I'd be interested in finding out what the lot/batch number of these is as I've bought some of those rounds.

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

I will ask him for you

 

[Smellydog]

It happens buddy, super fast bullets with flimsy jackets....seen it often. It's difficult for manufacturers. Folk want bullets to explode and also expect critters to drop every time.

It's good that your friend gets to be shooting it again quickly, I've seen many that don't even chamber another round just incase only to lose an opportunity when something gets back up!
Probably be fine next outing.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

My underkeeper has used these in the past,no problems whatsoever.
He's never lost one that he's hit, not always an exit but that's the point of fast expanding ammunition.
Can only think it's a bad batch.

 

[GWP]

Run it over a chrono if possible my mate uses hornady 55gr vmax out of a 22-250 no problems and we have yet to find a crow after being hit

 

[Rewulf]

one fox taking 4 shots to stop it with 3 of those shots all being well placed engine room shoots.

Im sorry but 55 gn at 3000 fps into the heart lung area, should be wiping it out , even if it was made of plastic ?

Are we saying the bullet isnt expanding properly ?
If his point of aim hasnt shifted considerably, and hes sure its coming out at proper velocity, there really shouldnt be an issue.

Try shooting into some clay or something where he can recover the bullet.
No fox Ive ever shot in its front torso has ever got up from a .223 hit.

 

[Finnwolf VL63]

Out of interest has anyone had any problems with 55gr hornady vmax .223 factory ammo?
A good friend who is an experienced fox shooter has had numerous foxes get up and run after being hit sometimes multiple times with a certain batch number of hornady ammo. Hes then gone and bought more ammo making sure that its a differnt batch number and the same thing has happened with one fox taking 4 shots to stop it with 3 of those shots all being well placed engine room shoots. As ive already said he is an experinced shot and his bullet placement is fine as is the groupings hes getting but he obviously cant go on like he is with most foxes all of a sudden getting up again and is wondering if anyone else is having the same issues, Ive told him to try and catch a bullet it water and to shoot a milk jug full of water with a board an couple of feet behind to try and going to get some idea of exspansion. Any ideas or experience welcome

Hi there,this has been happening with VMax for at least 20 years.As the other guys said high velocity and thin jackets.
Use Nosler Ballistic Tips never a problem, I have shot them at 4450 FPS from a 220 Ackley Swift with superb accuracy.

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

Im sorry but 55 gn at 3000 fps into the heart lung area, should be wiping it out , even if it was made of plastic ?

Are we saying the bullet isnt expanding properly ?
If his point of aim hasnt shifted considerably, and hes sure its coming out at proper velocity, there really shouldnt be an issue.

Try shooting into some clay or something where he can recover the bullet.
No fox Ive ever shot in its front torso has ever got up from a .223 hit.

Hes just shot it into 4 pint milk jugs end on the bullet breaking up as it should side on its not breaking up and you can take it from me on a fox last night he put 3 in the boilier room and one texas bullseye as it was limping off before it stopped it realy isnt a bullet placement problem hes gone from maybe 1 in 50 getting back up and running a bit before collapsing to 7/10 needing a follow up or not even giving the chance of a follow up shot. His point of aim and grouping size are as they always have been but in fairness none of us have a chrono to test speed

 

[Rewulf]

Hes just shot it into 4 pint milk jugs end on the bullet breaking up as it should side on its not breaking up

I wouldnt expect it to do much except pass through, side on into a milk jug , Im surprised it broke up end on really.
They do need to hit something meaty or boney to fragment or expand properly , to me it sounds like theres not much wrong with the bullet, and hes maybe been unlucky with a few shots , where it has gone through softer tissue ?
I dont use 55s as my 1:12 twist works better with 53s , and they are usually devastating out to 200 + yards, rarely exiting as they expand so well.

 

[Ade8mm]

Homeloaded 50grn V max in .222
A starting load of Vit 130. Individually weighed charge (I am not loading 100's at a time so why not? The starting load grouped so well I saw no need to increase the load)
Stone dead at the shot (60yrds) last week.
No exit wound.

VMax is a great bullet for Fox.
I also use 58grn vmax in the .243
The damage with those is somewhat more dramatic.
However, I often wonder with factory ammo, which due to cost considerations will have powder metered by volume not weight, how much powder weight variation there is between individual rounds in a given batch.
It might be worth your friend pulling some rounds just to see?
Ade

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Im sorry but 55 gn at 3000 fps into the heart lung area, should be wiping it out , even if it was made of plastic ?

Are we saying the bullet isnt expanding properly ?
If his point of aim hasnt shifted considerably, and hes sure its coming out at proper velocity, there really shouldnt be an issue.

Try shooting into some clay or something where he can recover the bullet.
No fox Ive ever shot in its front torso has ever got up from a .223 hit.

I've actually had one from a 53g vmax at around 3200. It just ran, you could see the gaping hole in the chest from 250 yards. Never found it, I can only presume it made it to it's den across the wall. It definitely expired shortly after because there's no way it could have survived that. It genuinely looked like a fist sized hole

 

[Smellydog]

I wouldnt expect it to do much except pass through, side on into a milk jug , Im surprised it broke up end on really.
They do need to hit something meaty or boney to fragment or expand properly , to me it sounds like theres not much wrong with the bullet, and hes maybe been unlucky with a few shots , where it has gone through softer tissue ?
I dont use 55s as my 1:12 twist works better with 53s , and they are usually devastating out to 200 + yards, rarely exiting as they expand so well.

I think you don't understand the physics involved here.
If a bullet is designed to fly apart as varmint bullets are it is a fine line at the high velocities they operate at where upon the water in flesh and blood can actually stop the bullet, causing a superficial very shallow surface wound.
Unless a piece of bullet does manage to get to the vitals the problems the op's friend is experiencing can happen. Unfortunately when this does happen the lead content becomes vapour. Anything penetrating will be very random pieces of thin jacket.


Personally the desire for exploding bullets is folly, originally it became popular for prairie dog towns in America. They are fat squirrel sized marmots, not foxes!
All my 222, hornets and 243 rifles I had used soft points and traditional hollow points and never had a problem, not as explosive but one hole in and one slightly bigger hole out. Job done.

 

[Rewulf]

I think you don't understand the physics involved here.
If a bullet is designed to fly apart as varmint bullets are it is a fine line at the high velocities they operate at where upon the water in flesh and blood can actually stop the bullet, causing a superficial very shallow surface wound.
Unless a piece of bullet does manage to get to the vitals the problems the op's friend is experiencing can happen. Unfortunately when this does happen the lead content becomes vapour. Anything penetrating will be very random pieces of thin jacket

Errr, I think I understand the physics quite well.
You are suggesting the projectile, travelling at around 2500+ fps is breaking up on the surface and barely penetrating the fox!
A Vmax can easily penetrate 5mm of steel and still kill whatever is behind it.
The bullet or fragments, are certainly not going to stop in a 'shallow wound' but continue on at supersonic speed until something stops it, or it exits.
Hydrostatic shock would still likely kill the animal even if nothing vital was penetrated.
I work on the cull of a certain stripey animal, and 223 is quite adequate to one shot kill them, so foxes should be a problem.
As I said, the bullet is fine, the man has had some unlucky shots.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm. The 50gns Vmax is my go-to fox round for the triple deuce and I have no recollection of one ever going on after the well placed hit. What I have noted is that obvious bullet performance can deviate significantly. Shot side-on there is usually a tiny, even hard to find, entrance wound and a substantial exit wound but conversely just sometimes the bullet pretty much detonates upon entry leaving a hole bigger than the more usual exit wound. Then again, exceptionally, it can be difficult to find either an entrance or exit wound (If the latter existed) but upon lifting the fox a sound like a well shook barrel of wet cabbages gives a clue as to the internal devastation.
All that said even if the Vmax failed to perform at all but just pencilled straight through then with the hidden hydrostatic shock, never mind bullet path damage it would have caused, then travelling at 3,000 rather than 2,500 fps it is hard to imagine such a lightly skinned animal going very far at all.

 

[Smellydog]

Errr, I think I understand the physics quite well.
You are suggesting the projectile, travelling at around 2500+ fps is breaking up on the surface and barely penetrating the fox!
A Vmax can easily penetrate 5mm of steel and still kill whatever is behind it.
The bullet or fragments, are certainly not going to stop in a 'shallow wound' but continue on at supersonic speed until something stops it, or it exits.
Hydrostatic shock would still likely kill the animal even if nothing vital was penetrated.
I work on the cull of a certain stripey animal, and 223 is quite adequate to one shot kill them, so foxes should be a problem.
As I said, the bullet is fine, the man has had some unlucky shots.

Ok, your the expert

 

[Gunner223]

I used the 55g v max for a year or so , had the same problem, fox's just running on , sometimes 100yds, perfect
chest shot, then changed to 55g bts , and wow what a difference , I don't think ive had one move more than 2 ft since
using them , and im doing around 5-8 every week.

 

[jb1]

I once tried 35grain Vmax out of a 22.250 shifting at 4500fps, that created a huge expansion on the broad side of a fox at 160 yards without enough retaining energy to kill the fox. It was dispatched 15-20 minutes later when i eventually found it in a wood, it was rather distressing to see and something i personally would rather not like to see again.

I still have the remaining bullets in the cabinet, been in there for 10 years plus.

I have never had any issues using 50,53,55 or 60 grain Vmax, they must have changed the design or something.

 

[Pellet Pinger]

Hes just shot it into 4 pint milk jugs end on the bullet breaking up as it should side on its not breaking up and you can take it from me on a fox last night he put 3 in the boilier room and one texas bullseye as it was limping off before it stopped it realy isnt a bullet placement problem hes gone from maybe 1 in 50 getting back up and running a bit before collapsing to 7/10 needing a follow up or not even giving the chance of a follow up shot. His point of aim and grouping size are as they always have been but in fairness none of us have a chrono to test speed

Something not right shouldnt need another 3 shots to kill it after the first!, how far was it? what sort of state was it in after being shot 4 times.

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

Something not right shouldnt need another 3 shots to kill it after the first!, how far was it? what sort of state was it in after being shot 4 times.

I wasnt there to say first hand but having known the bloke extremly well for over 30 years and knowing his experience I take what he says as fact, hes not a long range shooter and the the fox would have been well under 200 yards more than likley 100-150 yards the fox was knocked off its feet twice with the 1st 3 shots (all in the chest) but would just keep going with him discribing it as almost "drunk" looking with the final 4th shot going straight up the arse as it was the only shot to present itself which dropped it dead